I would enjoy m+ more if rewards never ended. (And it would give the best gear in the game as a result.)
The only reason it doesn’t, is to keep raiding sacred.
And why draw the line at +20 when some can’t even do a +10. To those we say, “sucks to be you?”
Maybe this is a slightly more succinct way to sum it all up:
I agree there needs to be a solid upper level of difficulty available, but not necessarily within the practical reward structure. I think the M+ reward cap aligns much better with the general population of the game than mythic raiding, which is established to please an exceptionally small portion of the population and creates friction for a much larger subset.
I don’t understand how you reconcile “We’re proud of our design, it’s strong enough to crush the guilds we purport to cherish, burn out players and generally leave them resentful and disheartened.” Great job team.
Some people aren’t good enough for content if the content has any degree of difficulty. Why is it not okay that some people aren’t good enough yet your desired design doesn’t literally cater to everyone?
You’re giving me the idea that if you’re on the other side of the line, to heck with everyone else.
Wherever you lower the bar, some people will not be good enough. (Let’s say, we cap it to LFR giving out gear cause gear matters I guess.) and the dungeon equivalent would be heroic dungeons.
Would the majority of the playerbase be more inclined to play for no gear rewards? (Or ones that don’t need?)
Normal / heroic/mythic raids will still be there, just they’ll drop LFR gear.
Normal dungeons will also drop LFR gear.
Now, if this is unsatisfactory, so we raise it to say, current heroic raid difficulty as end of gear drops.
Why is it a better game knowing that people who only do LFR will not be able to meet the max gear rewards?
M+ 20 already excludes 80% of the playerbase.
When difficult content exists, some people will be burned out by the difficulty.
Like there are guilds stuck on normal anduin several months into Sepulcher.
A desired target % of people to achieve CE, might be a better thing to aim for than abstract ideas to include more people.
Why is it not not okay? Because snowflakes won’t feel special enough? The scale can lean both ways.
I feel like you’ve ignored some of the fundamental things I’ve said, like ensuring that the requisite challenge is available to even the best players of the game.
I’m talking about addressing the investment versus rewards of a structure that asks more and more for less and less. I’m talking about reining in the rewards structure so that completion and exceptional performance can both exist without making raids a toxic quagmire for the overwhelming majority of mythic raid teams.
Something better needs to exist. PvPers don’t brag about their conquest gear. It’s not the pinnacle of their content. Mythic+ leaders don’t wear their gear like trophies, their achievements speak for themselves.
Also I never said anything about making LFR or Normal or Heroic easier. I have only said that I think the way Mythic challenges guilds is harmful and needs to be reconsidered.
I feel like you’ve ignored some of the fundamental things I’ve said, like ensuring that the requisite challenge is available to even the best players of the game.
The fundamental thing you want is removal of rewards because you don’t feel special enough since they exist.
They will still be in the game under your design.
I don’t care about the rewards personally. I understand if you care about them. I can’t say your wrong, so I’m not mandating anything. I just believe there is a better way to position raiding to give more players a healthier dose of it without the increasing overhead and constant turnover. I’ve said all along I could be entirely wrong.
If you don’t care about rewards then the current design should suit you just fine. (As you said, you still want the content to be in the game.)
M+ rewards scale infinitely. Rewards for high key pushers is to time the key. Game needs to have hard content. If mythic would not reward any gear, transmog, mounts of archivements I would still like to raid for world rank. If the raid becomes to easy its not fun anymore.
m+ rewards do not scale infinitely right now.
Difficulty has been pretty linear in mythic recently, no? If anything they need to go back to one early boss being a huge wall for guilds in terms of raw output so if you’re stuck 1/x or 2/x because you need an extra healer compared to rwf or your gearing sucks then by the time you get it down you’re adequately equipped for the later fights.
This also fights the notion of changing mythic lockouts as if walls were present earlier in tiers you’d see people selling lockouts to lesser guilds so they can skip the difficult bosses and get the easier mid raid ones down.
I think its an ego trip on the raiding community and nothing more when blizzard has the first half of the raid cleared at an ilvl <full heroic gear, its poor fight design and tuning that doesn’t set the proper precedence as to the performance required in the later fights. Just because you can go in at 480 and kill 5 bosses people did at 467 doesn’t mean you should ever get the boss that they took down at 480
Yo dude read all your post so far, i agree wih most of peoplw in both sides, but i take yours if you need a bench player let me know.
The rooster boss killed my amildrasill comunity
I have a rooster at home and can confirm they can be pretty aggressive. A rooster boss seems plausible.
I think there’s a whole lot wrong with your take, but let’s start with ilvl. I killed the first few bosses at ~470 ilvl. 473 for Volcoross and I was one of higher geared on our team at that time.
That was Nov 29th, 3 days after Echo’s first kill where they averaged 480 ilvl. I point this out to show just what kind of machine those guys are running, with splits and M+ and PvP carries.
They are operating on a budget like Red Bull in Formula 1 while my team is panhandling on the corner. And Blizzard is trying to serve us with the same content.
While their players are exceptional, it’s the organization behind them that is putting in the bulk of the work and creating the massive advantage. If my team had it’s own team of analysts working around the clock so that next time I logged in I had a checklist of gear steps like “go get carried to glad by chad” for a chance at X loot, my frickin mythic team would be doing a lot better too.
While the bosses in mythic raid are tough it’s not because mythic raiders are just so very good. It’s because the devs are fighting tech. They’re fighting weakauras, gear splits, and guild recruiting that works entirely differently for the hall of fame guilds and up.
The whole thing is built and tuned around advantages that 99.9% of the population does not, and will likely never be lucky enough to experience.
I think the gear advantage aspect only really holds for the first month or so.
And most mythic guilds aren’t reaching the last 1-2 bosses that early anyway. And by the time they do the fights have also been through at least some nerfs.
By 4-5 weeks into the season, between mythic+, crafted gear, and the upgrade tracks even more “casual” players (casual relative to WF guilds) were plateauing in the low/mid 480s with very minimal upgrades left over the next 4-5 months.
Here’s a list of the players in the kill.
They had more Cataclysmic Signet Brands than our guild has seen through every single raid clear on every level combined.
The point I’m making is not about gear, it’s the machine that is making it possible. The level of coordination and monetary investment they are capable of is establishing the precedents for slobs like me and my raid team.
The more those guilds put into raiding the further the higher the price of entry becomes for everyone involved.
I don’t know how much you guys know about sports, but almost all of them invoke rules that limit expenditures to ensure that the playing field doesn’t get even more imbalanced for the less advantaged teams.
The worst part is that WoW isn’t popular enough to properly foster competition. It’s why there are a few gaming organizations with very little competition. In most sports leagues with enough teams to make an upper tier will split to form their own league. Unless Blizzard changes things, that won’t happen. You’ll have a small handful of professional organizations dictating the way that others get to engage in the content of a flippin virtual dungeons and dragons fantasy rpg.
This is kind of blending clearing the raid vs the actual race to be first.
For these guilds clearing an unnerfed version of the raid is a foregone conclusion. There is no doubt in their mind they will clear it. They could never do a single split or buy a BoE and clear. Especially if someone else made the strategy guide
The “machine” as you put it is about the race, about clearing it first. Not just clearing. And in that aspect what they do to prepare for the race has zero meaning to guilds who only reach the end 1-2 bosses 2 or 3 months into the tier. It only matters for those guilds that are part of the race.
The sports salary cap analogy to me doesn’t work because that would be about making the race fair, not just completion of the raid. Every Signat brand Echo loots doesn’t remove one from a different guild. They aren’t competing against each other. They are trying to complete the content, and the machine grind those guilds did has zero relevance on later guilds beyond the subjective opinion that post-nerf later bosses are still too hard.
Those guilds grinded an insane amount in 2 weeks to be ~480 while the rest of us could casually pass that in 4-5 weeks doing some keys and crafting some gear. And the bosses also get nerfed ontop of being more geared at a more relaxed pace.
I’ve also seen 3 heroic signat brands drop in a single pug kill so RNG be RNG. I have a normal and heroic version on my DK long with augury and rageheart. The season has been out for so long with so many weeks of the vault and drops gear really isn’t an excuse.
You think my team wouldn’t benefit hugely from having a team of analysts creating personalized weakauras. A recruitment team that has the luxury of rejecting players that we could never even attract?
We can’t attract better players because the competition they create makes it harder and harder to keep up with.
All of the things they do will trickle down. The longer it’s left unchecked the worse it will get. It would be one thing if there were lots of investors and motivated parties out there trying to join in on the action to the point that they could break off and have a difficulty of their own, but there aren’t. There are a couple of gaming companies spending 10s of thousands of dollars each tier establishing your content and I don’t think that’s healthy.
All of the addons and weakauras are created and done before 90% of the guilds reach those bosses ontop of nerfs. And guilds playing casually have better gear than their insane grind produced.
You (the royal you) aren’t in competition with liquid and Echo. Their “machine” is about winning a race, not completion 4 months after the tier is out.
This reads a lot like blaming others that Tindral was made too hard of a fight in terms of requiring strong play from your entire team with little to no room for carrying a few mediocre players.
I am in competition with the game they force to be made because of their influence and resources.
I think the problem is that the devs are complicit in the problem because they are enamored by those guilds and are letting that cloud their vision of what’s important to the game.
I’m tired of feeling like I’m one of the few who sees it. A bunch of rich people have come in and taken away the game that was made with fun, family, and friendship in mind and perverted it into some psuedo-esport.
Only it’s such a terrible platform for such a thing that it just doesn’t work without completely disrupting things. M+ and Arenas work for esports because they’re head-to-head competitions with far more limited variables and scoring systems that support proper ranking and healthy competition.
WoW raids are a terrible foundation for a system.
I used a couple of weakauras in Legion, but nothing along the lines of what has been made necessary by their ham-fisted attempt of introducing hidden auras. All because of Echo, Limit and co.
They are making raiding into something it should never be and everyone feels the impact, regardless of how you might try to suggest that it doesn’t just because they made weakauras that you think everyone can just seamlessly incorporate into their strategies.
Your argument is like “All that dang money spent on NASA never did do nothin’ fer me.” Only difference is that many NASA creations go on to make life better, not just going to the moon.
It hurts my brain to see such a disconnect of understanding.
You could have just left it at you think Tindral is too hard even post nerf because of his design challenging your entire raid.