It was never easy. But it wasn’t this stupid before the developers got into their mutual twitter fluffing/pissing war with Echo.
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Tindral was even worse before they removed the overlapping firebeam casts. Somebody was on serious shrooms when they designed that thing.
According to Blizzard, they’ve all been busy working on plunderstorm.
And before that, they were busy waiting for the hall of fame to clear.
And before that, they were busy taking weeks of vacation because they released yet another raid right before Christmas.
Guess they’re too busy to do anything at all.
(Why do people actually assume that the Blizzard staff are competent? The current staff has never done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt.)
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Right, but we don’t know their target number of guilds to clear.
Blizzard is trying to fit two tiers of difficulty into Mythic because RWF is a bigger marketing tool and it’s impossible for 99.9% of the guilds. 99.9% of the guilds have to waiting for a nerfs because the bosses are straightup impossible to kill.
Sepulcher of the First Ones was one of the hardest raids in WoW ever. The only reasonable mythic bosses before tuning was Skolex and Dausegne. That’s it. There was a clear sign of bad raid design and tuning that caters for the 0.1%. They ended up destroying guilds and player engagement.
Ion was referring to the difficulty of Sepulcher as an “arms race between Echo and Liquid”. They still make bosses that is completely unreasonable for the normal players like Zskarn in Aberrus.
The original design of Mythic Zskarn was one of the worst fight in the history. The person that designed Zskarn stated that he and his guilds were using the cheese strategy, they killed him. They fixed the cheese strategy, the competition for HoF was basically done because the guilds who killed Zskarn just extend the lockout and break the guilds who didn’t kill Zskarn.
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I think that was definitely at the heart of those fights, which I can understand, but I think the reality is that filling a raid with 20 stars is just making the recruiting requirement even harder to achieve.
More to the point, I think some of the complaints were against fights like Magmoraxx where you mostly just stood still, then did a mechanic now and then. I think what they did with Tindral was overshoot the ‘something to do’ mark.
I think I wiped 80 times to Magmorax without a kill (bounced from that guild after that.) They were at pull count 170 or something. Best attempt like 1% in pull 80.
As for Tindral, really, people just suck. Equipping a PVP trinket should save a hundred pulls for everyone.
(Granted, I didn’t get there to see the boss in its true form.)
I agree.
Tab Target Action Combat is not a thing. and never will be.
Freedom works but i dont know about trinket. Every Man For Himself doesnt seem to work.
People die to a slow moving beam, while they have root breaks, (the people that don’t are more excusable) and I just sigh.
Every man for himself is a stun removal.
I still don’t know the safe spots for 2nd root with beam overlap. Didn’t have to learn it.
That’s the truth at the heart of my complaint. People do indeed suck at this game in a very broad sense. The friction is coming from the fact that the game is no longer being made for those people in a way that it used to be.
This game used to be a facilitator for people’s dream of virtual dungeons and dragons. It was a step up from it’s peers in practically every way and made it easy to live your fantasy of being an orc warrior or an elven archer.
It’s since become some weird community sorting mechanism that gradually and relentlessly segregates players into their arbitrary strata by essentially pitting them against one another in squid games style encounters that grind up groups and spit out the remains.
I honestly don’t know what I would change, so I’m just yelling at the clouds. The game needs difficulty but it also needs players just get through content so they can feel accomplished and keep coming back without getting brick-walled into unsubbing.
every time there was an opportunity for someone to fail, they either brought down the ceiling or diverted into multiple difficulties.
the skillgap resulting is currently eating the community alive.
they’ve done nothing to bridge it. the players failing in LFR are humans too - but it’s hard to imagine they are enjoying the same game the same way you and me do. We have more in common with the NPCs than we have with those players.
But the game has always “segregated” players.
This seems like the foundation of why the game split into so many different difficulty modes.
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Certainly not with the earliest raids. Regardless, what I mean is that at one time recognized that certain content, like Mage Tower, represent a properly difficult challenge and as such didn’t gate progression or gear behind it.
Now we have bosses that are essentially 20 simultaneous mage towers occurring at once and they’re calling it raid content.
I don’t agree with bosses like Anduin or The Janitor, Tindral or Fyrakk being appropriate. Anduin was the most obvious case of design by committee that appeared to have 15 leads involved, each with their own ideas on how to make a boss so intolerable to 99.9% of the game’s population that it required more adjustments than 20 or so .X patches combined.
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The earliest raids had one difficulty. If you sucked, you simply, didn’t kill bosses.
Now, WOW is more accessible.
The thing that stopped players back in the day was ignorance, not difficulty.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of both Classic WoW & TBC.
Yes, there was 1 difficulty, but I knew tons of underperforming players and disorganized guilds that cleared content.
The reason they were able to clear content is because at the time the gear helped nerf that content. Take Onyxia for instance, if you walked in there with dungeons blues week 1, deep breath would most likely very often kill you immediately if you’re careless and out of position, if you farmed MC for say 2 months with a guild and came back to Ony, your hp pool was higher, you might have random Fire resist on your gear, and if you make a mistake and get hit by deep breathe now you might survive it easier then you did prior.
If you’re a tank in TBC and you arrive @ Keal’thas, you might not be able to survive his pyroblast initially, but if you farm The Eye/SSC long enough your HP pool might become large enough to eat a Pyroblast if your DPS didn’t meet the DPS check. Also, the DPS check would become easier to meet over time.
Now you still see this in Normal/Heroic difficulties on Retail, but very often Mythic just has a mechanic that has no gear breakpoint in which the mechanic becomes easier to deal with ever. It’s just mechanical, it ignores the player power rising MMO aspect of the game and it becomes a pure skill check. That’s not to say all fatal one-shot mechanics are bad. Fyrakk’s giant roar in p3 that the raid has to stack in a seed for it an example of a good 1-shot mechanic the raid needs to pay attention to, Tindral’s beams are a bad example because they target the individual and ask perfection from everyone at any given time during the fight in p1/3 or people die and you fall behind on the task of just completing the fight successfully rather early on.
There’s a reason most of us that mythic raid just extend the lockout once we get to a certain point in the raid. At that point the gear stops mattering, the heroic trinkets and/or weapons from the raid are enough to progress, and there’s no point to gear farming anymore, you’ve hit the ilvl plateau to clear the content, we just have to throw ourselves at the bosses 300+ times and get gud. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel that makes it easier even in farm.
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Gear still matters, so people that suck can get on by instead of fail the dps check. (Just marginal benefit so experience helps more.)
Now, how many guilds were clearing Sunwell or Naxx 40 ( that Blizzard reused because so few people saw it.)
59 guilds for Naxx 40.
358 guilds for Sunwell.
do players know how their favorite simulator simulates?
back in the day the math was done manually.
ignorance is still there. The guy who writes your WA and your DBM would kill bosses today just fine.
Remember when irae AoD killed Yogg+0? They gave the head to the guy who wrote their addon that mouseover-identified the empowered adds.
Again, you’re talking about Mythic raiding players, you’re making this weird assumption that people that mythic raid are bad because they may struggle on the final bosses of a mythic raid with previous CEs under their belts. These aren’t people failing to make simple DPS checks, they hit the ilvl plataeu for the raid and then it’s just attempts.
If you can kill Mythic Smolderon, you have the DPS to kill Mythic Tindral/Fyrakk.
IF you can kill Mythic Rashok, the Elder, you have the DPS to kill Mythic Sarkareth
etc etc, gear doesn’t really matter anymore, you might take a few extra % off the tail end of P1, or P2, but this is the equivalent of taking 1-2% off the final phase, and if you’re in the final phase of the fight consistently the 1-2% on week 10-12 or whatever doesn’t matter, you’re gonna kill it on a clean pull, you just need the reps.
Would it surprise you to know those numbers are probably 10x for the recent classic era? There’s a lot of factors about why Naxx itself wasn’t cleared and it had to do more with semantics of the time and how long guilds had to clear it and motivation factors(Naxx gear was replaced with quest greens) vs the actual raid’s difficulty. This isn’t even taking into factor the long form factor of raiding back then(Guilds had to basically clear from the bottom to the top to progress and get gear)
Those raid followed the same rules I laid out above. You walk into Naxx week 1, Patchwerk can 2 tap your tanks, you come in 2 months later with your tanks in almost full Dreadnaught he can chop em 3 times before they fall over, Same with Brutallus in Sunwell. M’uru is probably the closest thing to a really tightly tuned boss and also one of Ion’s favorite fights(I remember him praising it on the old EJ Forums), due to how tightly tuned P1 was and how non-trivial P2 was, but even M’uru followed the rules and became easier over time especially if you were able to farm M’uru & KJ.
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