Pretty much this. Wings just adds to the high sustain classes should be doing.
If Wings is changed back to a 2 min cooldown, then the game would just go back to trading defensives for offensives and most players didn’t want that.
I hit Wings, priest hits Pain Sup… nothing dies. ZZzzzzzzzzz
The biggest problem is Inquisitor’s Ire stacking with Empyrean Legacy and Vanguards of Justice. Most probably don’t play VoJ anymore, but that can add to the burst.
Inquisitor’s Ire should have been a Burn Effect that works with Expurgation and Penitence, spreading the damage across 12 seconds.
Who exactly doesn’t want this? I will tell you its not the players on the receiving end that don’t have a 1 minute defensive to answer the 1 minute CD 20+ second burst windows that ret now have.
Trading offensive and defensive cds is litearlly the entire premise of upper echelon play. The team that manages their cds better and can force setups/trinkets should win their gos.
Who does want this? The rets that want to remain over tuned. Burst is still over tuned and any top rated player (including non-biased Ret mains) will admit this fact.
Most intelligent Ret players know the toxicity of the class comes from stacking TV + DS + DA.
Which is a problem due to how Inquisitor’s Ire and Empyrean Legacy match up every 20 seconds, and how poorly Divine Arbiter and Searing Light were designed.
Wings being active for 20 seconds every min is just a case of different classes being different. If it’s not 15% damage and crit for 20 seconds every 1 min, it will be 30% damage and crit for 10 seconds every 2 min.
Meaning Ret will be once again tied to stupid burst every 2 min and be completely useless outside of it.
Wings is not the problem, it’s TV+DS+DA hitting for 300k in a single attack every ~20 seconds.
Both have 20 sec cooldowns, both stack. Shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to know this is going to be toxic in PvP… we just don’t have a Paladin Dev, they all got moved over to Diablo4 or something.
Edit:
What people don’t realize is this is just typical Ret paladin at the start of an expansion, except we didn’t get any iteration during Beta.
What normally happens with Paladins every single expansion? They are overtuned and then nerfed to the ground.
We didn’t get any changes at the start of the expansion, so instead 10.0.7 hits, they are overtuned and will be nerfed to the ground.
Yes. Like Ret. Who has 2 defensives with a 1 min CD. And also an immunity bubble. And also a defensive for your allies that redirects 30% of damage with as low as a 1 min CD.
A 1 min cooldown that redirects 30% damage, it doesn’t prevent it, which is an important part.
Also an Immunity bubble that is easily countered by Arms, Fury, Spriest, Hpriest, and Disc.
Also the weaknest snare in game.
Also the only melee’s who’s stun can be dispelled.
Also the only melee’s who’s secondary CC can be dispelled.
Also the only melee without anti knock backs
Also the only melee without Z-axis influence/travel.
etc…
You remove the damage, you remove the utility/healing because “NERF RET” and they are exactly back to where they were for the past 15 years… miserable to play. =/
They need to be “balanced” – not nerfed.
If you remove JotP … bring back Undispellable Freedom.
If you nerf damage … make HoJ and Blinding Light undispellable
Like every other melee.
If you nerf healing … make BoP undispellable.
If you nerf FV/BoJ range … give us Wings of Liberty
Yes. Effectively making you immune to most CC while you’re at it.
The the small amount redirected isn’t that huge of a deal, as you’ll probably just it heal with with your own abilities as you’re probably not being targeted at that time. Since the instances you’d cast it is in situation where one of your partners is being focused. You’re mostly just turning wasted over-healing on yourself into real healing 80% of the time.
Also an Immunity bubble that is easily countered by Arms, Fury, Spriest, Hpriest, and Disc.
Yeah, two classes. And you actually have to be aware of your surroundings to remove it. And even then you’ll likely get 2-4 seconds of total immunity half the time. Sure it has a counter, but a lot of defensives have counters. It still is one of the strongest in game against a lot of teams.
Current Retribution is the #1 represented spec in the top 100 players, 500 players, 1000 players, and top 5000 players in US servers https://youtu.be/xl2qLfewBOw?t=682
And when a Paladin cast BoSac, and you swap to them, they take additional cleave damage. You swap to the paladin, cleave whoever they blessed and it’s just more damage. It’s an ability that has counter play to it, nothing is really wrong with that.
Improve Mass Dispel is a .2 sec cast, if you aren’t on top of the priest you’re likely to be MD’d almost instantly.
It also gives warriors a chance to preemptively shatter, increasing the skill cap, which again isn’t a bad thing.
You remove DP or SoV, and again, Paladins become the only class without a reliable defense, yay…
It doesn’t matter the representation, we’re at the end of a season, where everyone is fully leveled, everyone is fully geared, and conquest boxes are avaiable. Had this been the case 4 months ago, DH would be just as much of a problem.
4hp abilities, and if you are spamming them as soon as you have thw resources or with a divine purpose proc, they are not getting buffed by dawn hence they deal less damage. Of if you are 123ing generators in your head during burst that will slow you down even more. So no, having 1min wings isnt a problem. On my shaman I can tank a ret go with battlemaster earth ele, naruus blessing/ static field/ground, I can shift the next one. On my warrior I dont even have to parry I just spell reflect dstance rally impending ignore pain banner and parry the next wings, or disarm, or hleap fear kite or just straight up parry and all the ret burst goes down the drain. You know what I can actually do, I can pop avatar spear sharpen and burst the ret down harder than he can.
So you are wrong, specs have multiple ways of surviving 1min wings… hell you dont even have to pop anything if you a ww monk you just paralysis port, a dh just runs or blurs on cd, a rogue just vanishes/cloak/blind/evasion/feint/sprint behind a pillar, a dk just ams and amz/lichborne plus deathstrike and so on and on. Many specs can survive without their major cds
Ret currently has the highest representation in the last 7 days in the top 5000 players, 1000 players etc. Even top 100 players. Ahead of all other 30+ specs, and not by a small amount either. It will get nerfed, and it is OP. They are going to do something, and it’s not going to be small.
Weird how these excuses for getting away from damage weren’t a thing when it was our time to get beat down, and everyone wanted more cool downs and defensives.
You remove DP or SoV, and again, Paladins become the only class without a reliable defense, yay…
Who said anything about removing them? The most fair thing would just be a 20-30 sec CD increase on some of them, or 5 second duration cut on SoV.
People always overestimate how much of a DPS gain our wings are, and the 20-25% total it will be after the crit nerfs in PVP isn’t much compared to other specs with even bigger burst windows, but 23 second duration is pretty insane. It’s almost 40% uptime on wings now. 23 sec with, 37 sec without. That’s pretty insane.
It’s just a better way of designing a cooldown though. It makes more pressure, more often and doesn’t tie 90% of your damage to a cooldown, which is more frustrating and unfun of a game to play.
If we just go back to a 2 min cooldown, +30% damage (because it has to compete with Crusade), we just enter another situation of killing someone with insane burst, which isn’t fun. Or just trading defense cooldowns and doing no damage outside of them, which isn’t fun. (See: BfA)
This is a post from Cdew, even he knows that if Ret doesn’t do damage… they will be “garb.”
And the reasoning for that is because the many other flaws that still exist within the class that I’ve already stated throughout this thread.
Its this. Youre lying to yourself if you say anything otherwise.
Those of us that have been playing for a long time can see it plain as day. The playerbase has always openly hated Ret Paladins and Ret Paladin players because they watched the game devs openly on Ret Paladins and Ret Paladin players.
I mean, they clearly implementrd both talents to work together as a st boost. I was always of the idea of merging them but going way down the tree. The first change I had right after the rework was to not let divine storm crit. Again all of this comes from you getting crits if you dont, well too bad for you
Also vanquisher hammer was a straight up better talent over empyrean/ire with more agency, upfront damage, hp generation and range. We are being called op for playing with a worse version of vh.
Well public perception of Ret pre 10.7 was so bad that both wowhead and icy veins listed how poorly the class was perceived as a negative in their class guides. Warning how it was hard to get groups because the player base viewed them as worthless. So let’s not pretend the spec didn’t need a boost….
I made a comment with a link before, but it seems my link and comment got removed. Maybe no external links allowed? Go to 11:22 minute mark on Venruki’s latest video on YouTube about Ret. “This Spec Has Ruined PvP In World of Warcraft”. Ret is represented 10x as much as all the bottom 22 out of 32 specs in the top 1000. Probably more Rets than the bottom 22 all piled together.
And it’s not like there aren’t some other kind of OP specs. Warrior is in 2nd place, and resto sham is also really high.
The number on top doesn’t mean anything if the number of rets is proportional.
For ex: 1000 rets participate in PvP while 100 of each other specs, it’s normal for ret to be 10 times more represented than any other spec.
That’s why total population is important to determine how much over or under a certain spec is.
I’d be curious to know how other specs compare with their 2 sec burst window. Cdew is assuming all 3 abilities crit at the same time. The chance of 2 critting is about 6% and the chance of all critting is 1.5%, and that’s only in that wings window. 350k is definitely too much, even if it’s a very small chance, but I would think there are multiple specs that can do like 300k within a 2 second window if you assume every ability they have crits during a burst window.
on Ret Paladins and Ret Paladin players.