Does the guide I linked say to continue to protect a GY at the start if you die? No it actually says a lot of times you should go around them, it’s not necessary to fight the other side all of the time. If you pass them then you have a better chance to cap objectives, get honor points and win.
The problem, Viratrix, is even in the games where the Alliance DO outclass the Horde, they can’t win because they never attempt to. Capping SF and IB might be hard to do but you’ll never know if you’re capable if you spend every game sitting at SH GY.
And that’s literally been my point the entire time. The alliance winrate is as low as it is because the alliance have completely given up. I’m not saying it would be 50/50 if they actually put in the effort, but it would be a heck of a lot better than it is now. I’ve seen multiple games where Alliance had us dead to rights, wiped us multiple times at SH GY, and just… never pressed their advantage. They just sat there and waited for us to return.
You cannot win that way.
They’ve had this drilled into their head, with details, for months but can’t seem to grasp the concept of why alliance in AV now are there for rep and not wins. Trying to win just led to long, drawn out losses and total frustration.
When your group is twice as good as the horde group and you still lose because it’s that easy to defend the horde side of the map, it’s not a fun experience.
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The point is, if the entire objective is to kill the last guy and cap everything on the opposite side of the map from your starting position then you should in most cases try to get to the other side. Only in some special cases like if you’re both close do you need to recall to stop the other side from a kill of the end boss before your side does.
You often can’t do this. First of all, fast mounts vs slow ones means your force gets split. Then there are hunter traps, mage frost novas, fear bombs. A good portion of your force gets ripped apart trying to get around. The amount that do get south might take IBGY but they aren’t getting reinforcements and the horde are rezzing soon. Attrition takes down the defenders at IBGY and now everyone is back at SHGY.
Sometimes it does work but it’s a very risky strategy and only worth trying maybe once every four or five AV on the chance you’ll take horde by surprise and make it through.
If the Alliance group were twice as a good as the Horde group following the basic strategy to win, they will win probably about 95% of the battles. Of course if they don’t follow the strategy and have twice as good gear, etc, then they won’t win that high, maybe 30% or so.
The entire goal is getting to the other side. Not defending your last GY like your life depends on it. That’s a recipe for a lot of losses. Especially if you keep on about how the map is bad and not try some strategy to win.
Again, most times it’s not a choice. It’s where you end up and you are being attacked so you fight back. Maybe you can gather a group of 5 or 10 to assault from there but even that is often enough. We’re dealing with a mob of people here, getting 20+ people to organize and rush is very difficult.
It’s much easier to get them to clash with the enemy to a standstill, they do that naturally.
So now you’re referring to inferior gear which either side can have.
If the Alliance stayed to right all 40 of them there would be no way for the Horde to stop them. The Alliance would roll right over them and the Horde would respawn at IB GY. Now those Horde are further down on the map. Alliance are further to the south. At that point in time the Alliance have a better chance to win than defending SH GY.
Except the first objective for Alliance is IBGY, how do you cap it and HOLD it for the 5 minutes while horde rez 20 at a time 20 seconds away and we rez 10 at a time at SHGY 50 seconds away, do you not see the massive disparity here?
All horde need to do is zerg SHGY over and over until it caps, even if we traded SHGY for IBGY, we would never hold IBGY vs the wave of back cappers who when they die, guess where they rez 20 at a time at? You guess it, the cave, because they died at IBGY, so now that we lost SHGY for IBGY, everytime even 1 Alliance die its a MASSIVE loss for us because they now rez at SPGY, where as when the horde die there, eh who cares, just rez in the cave 20 seconds away 20 at a time.
Dying means nothing to the horde and thats also an issue, Alliance need to defend SHGY AND IBGY, Horde just need to zerg SHGY.
How can you push south with that cave rez in place and the fact that the graveyard near it is the Alliances FIRST objective. We cant just have no one at SHGY like horde can do for IBGY, we have to KEEP SHGY until IBGY HARD CAPS.
If we lose SHGY and only soft cap IBGY, in the 5 minutes there will be 0 Alliance left down south because once again, every death we have is MASSIVE. Dying as horde trying to retake IBGY MEANS NOTHING TO THEM.
Im not sure how else to describe this, the advantage is pretty glaring and clear.
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You’re completely ignoring the fact that if alliance freely give up SHGY, they have to take and hold a southern GY or they are stuck behind one of the best horde chokes on the map.
If we don’t defend SHGY, and let’s say, hit SFGY full force, any alliance who dies trying to hold SF is going to rez at AS. Any horde who die at SF are going to rez at IBGY. How fast are alliance getting reinforcements vs. horde? Guess what happens if we lose SFGY? Yep, we’re stuck behind the horde choke at IWB because we did not defend SHGY.
So we don’t go SFGY, we go IBGY instead. Once again, horde can get reinforcements faster than alliance who die.
Compare that to SHGY. If alliance lose SHGY, they rez at SPGY, horde rez at IBGY. Horde can reinforce as easily as alliance can.
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No, I’m referring to trying to rush past a defending force when you get spread out. It’s not much of a problem horde-side because the fast mounts set the start of the picket and the slow ones get anything that makes it through.
Not the same thing on both sides there.
Anyways, you have some ideas that work well for premades but horribly for pugs. And that’s why people did premades in the first place.
But I’m done discussing it, have fun!
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Agreed that’s why the Alliance are in this issue. Most of them complained at the start about the map because in patch 2.4 the map changes and the Horde starting position is moved back after the resources were added to the game. It was at the time of the resource change that the Alliance believed the map favored the Horde not during vanilla WoW. In vanilla WoW during the years 2005, 2006, 2007 the Alliance would win a lot more than they do now in AV. Was it because of the map? No, the map is identical! The issue now is the belief of the Alliance and the map. One of the reasons is because so many of the Alliance are used to winning in 7 minutes. Now in WoW Classic it’s different from the 7 minute win, they refer to the map and keep talking about GYs instead of the correct strategy to win.
Talking about holding gys is part of the strategy to win. If you do not have a rez point near objectives, it’s pointless to try to take them when reinforcements are coming from the other side of the map. That’s AV101.
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Incorrect! Only if you’re in a large PvP battle. If your strategy is to go for the objectives and only fight the Horde when they move to defend then you’re not talking about a large PvP battle.
Your concern should be the forward GYs, not your defensive ones. And your concern primarily should be to get the objectives completed so you’re farther along towards getting to the end boss.
What you stated is exactly my point “If you do not have a rez point near objectives”. Is SH GY near your objectives? No! It’s far away. No sense in spending your entire force on defending it.
Your replies and suggestions are laughable at best.
Who can hold a position while leap frogging to the next objective will win.
Who can out reinforce an objective will win.
Take those 2 points and apply it to IBGY for Alliance.
Can we hold that position for it to cap?
No we can’t because we have a graveyard 50 seconds away.
Can we out reinforce horde to hold IBGY?
Again no we can’t, we come from 50 seconds away 10 at a time while horde come from 20 seconds away 20 at a time.
This really isn’t complicated…
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Once again, the strategy to win is in this guide:
classic[dot]wowhead[dot]com/guides/alterac-valley-battleground-classic-wow
No where in there does it say to defend your last GY. It talks later about controlling strategic GYs after you’ve focused on getting to your objectives. In general, for Horde that would be SH GY. For Alliance that’s IB GY.
You are clueless about AV on Alliance side.
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Why are you all responding to prepared… he is obviously a troll.
Somehow he thinks you need to win AV without GYs and without PvP and that if allies are 2x as strong and play better they would win all the time where as the alliance have shown we can play well and be over 3x as strong as the horde and still win only 10%.
He keeps references to guides which are not actually guides and are not written by people who understand the map.
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I enjoyed reading this because it just shows how stupid you have to be to think it holds any value. Hang on let me just start picking it apart a bit:
" Know the map.
Winning Alterac Valley goes to whichever team knows the map best and can use it the most effectively."
Kind of a meaningless statement right out, we can atleast assume equal knowledge and ability from both sides on average. Though, anyone who actually knows the map knows how much easier it is for horde to use to their advantage, so if ability is equal and knowledge is equal, horde are favored.
" Travel in a coordinated group whenever possible.
A coordinated team of people, especially if connected through voice chat, can take on a great deal and is much more likely to survive. Solo players are targets and will be picked off."
In my experience, both teams are equally as good at doing this. Random solo Zugs are about as common as random solo alliance trying to make an offensive effort. So again, useless info.
" Don’t automatically try to kill enemy players.
Often, players will see an enemy player and immediately attack them, whether it’s strategically necessary or not. Enemy players should be treated like NPCs – NPCs that are often less powerful, and will “evade”, and have unpredictable aggro. Keep your mind on the goals and don’t get slowed down."
This ones hilarious because of how terribly horde fail at doing it and then tell the alliance they’re losing because they don’t PvP.
" Learn the ways to get around difficult areas or choke points when possible.
Knowing the sneaky ways around can not only get you past difficult areas, but can help you defend more effectively against other players who know those ways too."
Yeah we know them, we also know where we can’t. Which is why they fight so hard for SHGY, because you can’t bypass IWB choke with horde controlled SHGY as alliance.
" Avoid the roads when possible.
Most players are naturally inclined to follow roads, but in this case, don’t. The road has patrols and just leads into the Field of Strife where all the zergers will congregate, which doesn’t advance the battleground’s goals. This isn’t always possible due to choke points, but roads are often patrolled by stealthed enemy players who will be happy to take you out."
Another hilarious horde fail. Horde literally just follow the road the entire game (except for the ones hitting DB backdoor). It’s also advice that’s like ??? at best.
“Cap towers and graveyards.
This means staying there to defend until they are capped, which takes 4 minutes. For every tower under your faction’s control, the boss will have 1 Marshall or Warmaster in the room with him, a very tough elite. A tower or graveyard that is recapped (it belonged to the enemy faction and they turn the flag back) will not onlyhave to be recaptured, but will also reset the 4-minute timer.”
Alright, yeah sure. We’ll come back to this in a minute.
" DON’T allow the other side to control the most strategic graveyards.
Keep the nearest graveyard to the current objective capped. Otherwise, if your side starts taking casualties, they will have a very long run across enemy territory to return to the fight."
Ah yeah, whoops. It literally says GY first, then the other objectives in the area. So what’s the strategic GY to take IBGY? SFGY maybe, well what’s the strategic GY to take SFGY? Oh yeah, it’s SHGY. Well shoot, looks like we WERE defending the right GY the whole time.
" * Don’t forget to loot insignias off dead players, particularly when the enemy falls near strategic resources.
A dead player will carry an insignia. If the player’s body is not looted and the insignia left on the corpse, the player can run back and rez at their corpse. If the insignia is looted, the player will be required to rez at a graveyard controlled by their faction."
Yeah, I think this happens near 100% on both sides.
" Don’t fight on the bridge, or too close to the ravine.
The bridge between the Alliance keep and Stormpike Graveyard is a famous chokepoint. It’s easy to get knocked off the bridge and die. Fight on one side or the other; the bridge is for rapid crossing only."
I don’t see how this advice means anything to us. I guess you could transcribe it to the horde keep. (Which is a god damn amazing defensive bastion btw, so much better than alliance base if you have ever looked at the two.)
" If you get accidental aggro while fighting the end boss, DON’T try to escape by running out of the keep.
This will reset the boss. Run to the tank."
Assumes a hell of a lot.
So how exactly was this meant to help alliance win? It offered all of nothing and I kind of feel dumber for letting you get me to read it. Congrats dude 10/10 you got some idiot alliance to fall for your troll or something.
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I think its worth mentioning that in current wow, we are all better players in the grand scheme then anyone was in vanilla. When you apply this to anything you will see its just the truth.
Spec wise people are gravitating to their intended role
Raid wise more people then ever are raiding, clearing content an getting gear.
Economy wise, boosting is wide spread, Multiple world gathering points are on 24/7 camp cycles that aren’t bot controlled but guild controlled.
If the average classic player is able to squeeze more advantage out of the same situations that the average vanilla player could, then this would also translate to PVP. The maps that are more or less mirrors are doing fine, the one map that isnt is doing horrible.