Yes, that is what I meant. I didn’t make it fully clear when I transitioned from the quote to myself, but my post is aimed at the “recent change” part of the quote.
Prior to this change, there was some “politics” at the end. Very cringe btw, hated it.
I’m not saying it’s a requirement, but unlike skill based gear (arena rating and the like), you don’t necessarily have the option to afk for it (boosting aside).
Nobody really dangles a big reward from the top of Mount Everest to compel you to engage in an unhealthy activity to get it though. I think we could dance around this all day but the inescapable fact is that this is a video game after all.
It feels like you’re making no distinction for nuance in this argument. It is either a monumental activity that must require quitting your job to achieve, or it is free epics and easy mode.
There’s room to have something that lands in the middle of this.
Honestly, I don’t know how you could have done this without spending all of your spare time on the endeavour, even sacrificing many of your personal and sick days. I remember what it took back then because while I never got it myself, I did support a few groups who did.
It was never really about skill, it was just about time invested. Being skilled, or more accurately, running with a group, helped your situation but you still had to play an excessive amount in order to meet your caps.
About the only thing I support about the old system is that it got people grouping together. I think that’s important for World of Warcraft. I just wish there was a way to have that in PvP without people forming mafias around it and purposefully boxing out other people like we’ve seen happen.
Professional sports players are an extreme minority. So is Royalty.
Some people also have rare diseases that may be treatable.
There are certainly situations where extreme minorities should be catered to.
I don’t think this particular part of your statement really supports your point whatsoever.
I’m not asking for it to be easy to obtain, just more accessible. That’s a very important distinction. In fact, I’m even suggesting that the total amount of honour required for R14 be increased, not decreased. I’m ok with this being a long term goal, but it shouldn’t be completely out of the realm of possibility for those who aren’t able to play 8+ hours a day.
Also, the thing about running is that you can complete an Ironman (or maybe more accurately to the metaphor, a marathon) by just running for 1-2 hours every day. Starting small and working your way up, but you can definitely complete. You won’t be winning, but you’re not restricted from being able to say that you achieved that goal. This is a poor metaphor for the same reasons Partyrock’s one about Everest is… nobody is dangling a reward in front of you to compel you to do the activity. Ironmans, Marathons, and Mount Everest are all personal motivations.
Still though, all of those activities actually require less bulk time commitment than getting R14 in WoW, lol.
*EDIT: For both you and Partyrock, I want to also say that while I don’t agree with you, thank you for the discussion. I understand why you both feel the way you do and your perspective is valid.
I feel like you’re making distinctions where they’re unnecessary. If Mount Everest doesn’t work metaphorically in your opinion, then perhaps a marathon will. People will push themselves to do triathlons as well. There’s even marathons where people will run through the Sahara then swim through the ocean and then climb mountains for big rewards. Certainly much more unhealthy then sitting in a chair doing what is essentially a crunch time desk job for a set amount of weeks.
Well I will say, back then, if you weren’t on a mega server, you didn’t necessarily even have to play all day. Games weren’t going on 24/7. You just had to know when to play, which still end up being a lot, of course. Cross server did change this.
When classic came back for 2019, I got to rank 11 and decided to call it quits. And in SoM I called it at rank 12.
The thing is, I don’t need to be rank 14 to enjoy the system. I enjoy the fact that I could go all the way if I felt inspired to do so. But it’s fun to challenge myself to see how far I can go each time.
The key to enjoying the system is being okay with not being handed all the potential rewards from it. I think that’s the problem and the source of the conflict here. Some players believe that every BiS item in the game should be reasonably accessible to people that don’t have a lot of time for a long grind. While I understand that argument, it has no place in classic since this game is already completed and here to serve as an oasis for those who enjoy such a game.
What an awful take. How you personally feel and how you personally approach life isn’t the way a company designing a game or aspects of a game should feel. You aren’t dedicated to the game, a bad player and shouldn’t reap the reward that other players with more skill, dedication and effort receive.
Making something more accessible can definitely change how it is obtained. I get the idea, and it’s up to Blizzard to develop their own game how they want, but my personal opinion is that the charm of Classic is and always has been how inaccessible some of the things are.
And this is a good example, I think:
I agree with Nekrage here. I think that’s definitely part of the charm that Vanilla had.
Would anybody make a list of things that are healthy and put WoW on it?
Anyway, it’s all just opinions and personal preferences, and it’s OK that we differ here.
I think you’ve just given an incredibly poor example. You cannot compete in an Ironman (or really any marathon - though Ironman is the Triathalon that I named) by running 1-2 hours/day.
If you’d like to give yourself a HWL title above your head or on the nameplate on your desk with a sticky note, nobody’s stopping you.
You think that getting R14 in WoW requires more of a time commitment than training for and completing an Ironman?
Likewise. We don’t have to agree on this. I’m also probably never going to go for R14, even if (especially if?) they make it even more accessible.
I can say for certain you can abuse the Arena, just not as easily. The way to climb the ladder (post WoD S1) was simply to utilize the best possible comp per the rating you’re at since different comps stratify on the ladder no matter the expansion since.
This gave the easiest path to glad; its comically easier than playing the same team from Zero to Glad (before fixed rating breaks) of the more recent expansion… I am clearing this up because I suspect Classic Arena players do not know how Retail arena works. (not the same as Classic TBC / Wrath / Cata).
Win trading also tends to take place occasionally also in Retail.
Another problem with Arena is all the cheating present because there is no enforcement of the rules; its everything from using AHK’s that are 100% banned on occasion, to flat out legit kick botting or hacked clients that provide near 100% mechanical automation to a near flawless degree. The bots at 2300+ are so good only R1’s can really out play them, and even R1’s I know do flop VS them also.
While the Vanilla system is not perfect, and its got many flaws… It also has the same flaws as the Arena systems biggest problem and that’s cheating… In the case of Classic AFK’n the BG’s being a scummy little leech.
Yes, I do. I’m going to move away from the Ironman metaphor because it goes beyond the original example of running. Let’s stick to a marathon.
I’ve never done a marathon, the longest I have done is a 15k. I ended up over training for it and it was fairly easy for the pace I set for myself. I didn’t finish first by any stretch… I was somewhere mid-pack, but I was able to complete it without any issues. Based on that experience and the training I did, I have full confidence that I could have run the additional 6km to complete a half-marathon. From there, with the track I was on, I could have continued on to a full marathon if I wanted to… I just didn’t really have much desire to be running for ~4ish hours. I enjoyed running, but a 2 hour run vs. a 4 hour run just felt the same. I’m not super competitive and felt I had accomplished what I wanted to.
It took me maybe two months of training to feel ready for the 15k. As I said, I overprepared (as I tend to do). My schedule was to run 3-4 times per week, building distance, and then dropping down again for the next week. So Monday I would run a 5k, then a 6k on Wednesday, followed by a 8k on Friday. On towards the end I was doing a 10k on Sunday which would be immediately followed by the next week’s 5km. At some point I did do a 16k run just to make sure I could make it, but that wasn’t necessary.
On each of these training days, my run was no more than an hour, with my runs on any given week never being more than 3 hours. Had I the desire to move up to a full marathon I could probably see myself working my way up to having 15k training runs, but the advice I received at the time (which clearly worked, for me at least) is that you don’t really want to do a full marathon in prep for a marathon. You just want to condition your body for distance running, allow it to get used to running at a set pace, then focus on maintaining that pace for longer. Again, this is with the goal of completing the run… placing first is perhaps a different strategy? I dunno, I’m not a competitive runner, I just found I liked doing it and wanted to challenge myself 
So yes, training for, and running a marathon is actually a lot less time commitment than geting R14 in WoW. By a very large margin! And, you don’t even get the benefit of physical fitness from the ranking grind >.<
People who have been R14 five different times in the old system can still have absolutely braindead takes. Just say your bit and don’t worry about the credentials. Someone who has never played WoW could make a great suggestion about the game. The suggestion itself is all the matters.
That bit at the start was all sarcasm and taking a poke at the folks who tend to like to respond to posts with something along the lines of “Well if you haven’t done X then you can’t have an opinion about it!” --or-- “There are no Monks in Era, your trash retail opinion doesn’t matter!”
I’m sure we’ve all seen them. Still, the overall response to folks taking my sarcasm seriously was uplifting. Some days, you guys are a treat
If you haven’t been r14 on all classes of all races, I am… just not sure, you know.
I have perspective from vanilla.
I saw a druid playing 20+ hours a day to get HWL. He did this for months. He barely ate. Barely slept. Lived off his savings.
Ended up in hospital.
A hunter from my guild who was also pushing for HWL? he won out. Specifically because of the decay from one week. He was a retired vet with insomnia. He only could play that much because someone was directly caring for him.
10 to 12 weeks. 10 hours a day?
Still feels disgusting.
Vanilla predated achievements and dailies and weeklies. It predated our modern version of currencies.
If it had been honest, a HWL should be someone who doesn’t just play a lot but also participates, leads and gets objectives and kills. Getting caps, getting kills, pushing objectives (and being on top of them), all of that needs to be rewarded with rank-gain. Afkers should walk out with no rank gain. No honor too, but absolutely no rank gain.
The system should be separated, whay gets you your title and gear unlocks should be part and parcel of playing the games themselves.
Not just presence.
Please no. If I wanted easier content and rewards handed to me Id just go play retail.
Its tiny small changes like this that ruined WoW in the first place.
Found the afker. You know back then we didn’t know exactly how honor worked, and theories ranged based on a hidden weighting system? By TBC people had discovered that “the farm” was not in kills or caps but presence. Hence AFK. People entered classic knowing AFKing worked. So the game is already completely different.
Appealing to nostalgia when people are not roleplaying as clueless vanilla players is silly. The system needs to adapt to well informed players who no longer see the need to grind face to face for 24 hours straight over the bridge in AV.
Not sure if you read my posts on the matter but…
R14 should not be easy to obtain and rewards should not be handed to you. It should take a significant time investment to acquire; however, this can be achieved without requiring 8+ hour days.
We can preserve the original design intent of Vanilla while not making obnoxious game systems that encourge detrimental behaviours.
The breakpoints need to be very high because otherwise this becomes nothing more than filling a rep meter 
I read it totally fine, and still no.
Things being insanely hard to get was what made OG WoW great. Seeing people sitting in town wearing gear only a tiny tip top of the spear percentage of people could get is what made it awesome.
So, no.
That’s exactly what it is now, and what it was in Vanilla too. You’re not excluding people who are good at PvP, you’re just excluding people who can’t sink 40+ hours a week into playing the game.
Both then and now, when you see R14 gear, you don’t think “Man, that person must be really good at PvP!” You think, “Wow, that person sunk an unhealthy amount of time into the game…”
I know you know this.
Thank you for your views.
and that’s fine this is a classic MMO. it was designed to be the mother of all time sinks. you’re not gonna change that aspect of the game.