it is quite odd to this day the anti-rdf are still very against the idea yet one poster here asked for a “way to sort out heroics”
why not socialise and tell ppl on whisper to clarify which you’re doing lol.
this is that you wanted, you wanted to talk to ppl so figure it out yourself. it’s also nutty ppl don’t want more players to play with lol . the community i tell ya
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Because people don’t do it.
You can add notes, you can decline invites, you can whisper people, they simply do not read what you write.
The only moment they notice that you’re not there for heroic+ is when you’re not clicking the stupid rune or they mouseover you and see your gearscore.
except that i never have when i used rdf. i had the occasional ninja looter or mob puller but that was maybe 1 in 50 runs back in the day.
that would be great except after 4 false starts and one transfer off of maladath with it being marked for death, me and my 4 friends finally found an old school chill guild with great people.
its simple for me, put rdf back in the game, got a problem with the rewards, then cut back on em. but the cross realm and the dungeon teleports are key to the convenience allowing casual players to have a ton of fun maximizing their play time. im not looking for anything that gives me a boost to compete with anyone, as i dont care what bob from extreme playas does with his time or what he completes. i just enjoy having as much fun as possible in the limited play time available.
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Thanks, but CBA leveling a new toon without RDF / Joyous. I caved and ran a naxx GDKP so hopefully I won’t get booted anymore lol
Me either. RDF during Wrath was very chill. Not sure where these horror stories come from. People making it up, or from later expansions.
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There also needs to be a * next to peoples names listed indicating they have a description written. I’ve now done 3 dungeons where I’ve listed saying I’m healing for unneeded gear, reiterate this in the group chat, one group people quit after 2nd boss because I was “rolling need on everything” after making it very clear, another group a dude from a certain continent that is notorious for horrible players decides to roll need on everything not needed as well, says something that rhymes with haha then leaves.
How exactly do you figure the LFG tool encourages “gatekeeping”? Completely disagree with you on that.
As for allowing it to happen, then absolutely I’d agree, but that’s not a problem with the tool, it’s a problem with the playerbase. Even if you disagree with the way people tend to build their groups, why would you want to take that freedom away from them? In a social game, every individual should have complete control over who they play with.
Forcing someone to play with people they don’t want to doesn’t create toxicity out of thin air where it didn’t exist before, but it does condense that toxicity into a confined space, which creates a miserable experience for everyone involved when it happens (and that’s often).
I’d be happy to remind you of what happened when people were using the /spit emote constantly. The WoW team made the stupid decision to remove that freedom altogether, but that toxicity didn’t disappear. It just came out in different ways. What we’re left with is marginally less freedom, but precisely the same amount of toxicity, maybe slightly more. Trying to control the playerbase doesn’t work.
I’m very curious to know why you’re framing this as if the recipients of this “toxicity” can’t form their own groups. The beauty of everyone having equal freedom to choose who they don’t play with is that it works in every direction.
I’ve never understood why so many people seem to actually want to play with these toxic people they complain about so often, and why they don’t see the very obvious pitfalls of that mentality.
*RDF implemented in the last raid tier
You’re missing his point I think. It’s not that the path of least resistance is always bad. It’s that this specific path of least resistance is bad (in our opinion), which is also what I said. Whether or not you want to see dungeon finder in the game is a matter of preference, but if it’s ever implemented, it effectively replaces the current way we play, and that’s something that many of us never want to see happen.
As far as the argument goes, it really just boils down to our preferences, and at least for now, we (who dislike dungeon finder) are fortunate that the WoW team agrees with us that it diminishes the experience that WoW was designed to offer.
Ma’am, this is a video game. That’s completely irrelevant to this discussion. You know what would be really efficient? If every character you made, you could choose what level they start at, and be mailed a full set of gear and mounts and gold.
But that would be absolutely absurd, right? Because it’s a video game. 
Generally speaking, video games present challenges that the players must overcome in some way. Generally speaking, the fun of playing video games (when it comes to optimizing things) is to cleverly play against those challenges within the confines of the game’s rules.
Games are not meant to be “efficient”, or to feed you content through a fire hose. They’re meant to entertain you.
LMAO, The irony is palpable here.
The only people who pretend that forming a manual group is some massive achievement are the people who act like dungeon finder would save us from some horrible fate because it’s “impossible” to find groups.
Literally no one who dislikes dungeon finder thinks that building groups is some herculean effort to be proud of. We like forming groups manually much more, and one of the biggest reasons for it is that it most often leads to a better experience, and for minimal investment of effort.
Stop projecting.
the funny thing here is that you are arguing with multiple people who are getting multiple likes on just about every comment they make while you are alone and getting very few if any likes on your comments. yet you stick to your guns saying anti rdf are the majority. and while you dont come out and say those exact words. if you spetn any time on any non mega server, you would see that pro rdf appears to be the majority on all those servers.
and youre very dismissive of anything thats not part of your narrative. this means… you dont care what anyone could or would say, you dont care how true the experiences related to you are, you have your mega server and youve been encouraged to be toxic by blizzard and thats that. you will forever refuse to acknowledge anything positive about rdf or any tool/feature that is in any way against the way you want to play. so everything you have said, no matter how subtle or not, youre just trolling at this point and trying to cover it by appearing to have a reasonable discussion.
your mistake here was your choice of phrases. your cover slipped and your troll is showing.
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im guessing most of those arguing against rdf werent there in original wrath, they showed up in later expansions after the character mechanics changed, after borrowed power and everything else started to appear and the community started to change.
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From what I can tell most of the anti RDF crowd just has the thickest of rose colored glasses on about vanilla. They have completely inaccurate memories of how WoW actually played out in vanilla where it was never some socialization utopia. And are blind to the realities of how classic has played out which has never been even close to what originally existed anyways.
This applies to the devs as well, but throw in a big chunk of hubris as well.
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I honestly don’t think that a compromise is possible, because the most important issues for each side are not only completely opposite, they’re also basically non-negotiable.
- Automated group formation
- Cross-realm
There are many various perspectives on dungeon finder that include other things like extra badges, the teleport, satchels with additional rewards, ilevel locks, limiting it to certain content, etc., but from what I’ve seen, these 2 specific points are easily the most important focal points of the disagreement, and almost invariably, people want both, or they want neither.
People who value completely opposite things can’t really make compromises.
On almost everything else you’ve said in this thread, I completely agree with, and it’s refreshing to see someone bringing a mature perspective into the conversation rather than submitting to the childish tribalism we see rampant on the forums and every other place where discussion happens. (It’s also refreshing to see I’m not the only person on these forums who types long-winded posts xD)
On this note though, I disagree. Without getting too deeply into my reasoning, I think there are great aspects of realms that are basically thrown out the window when you implement cross-realm play where it isn’t necessary. And clearly we have different perspectives on whether it’s necessary to begin with.
Firstly, I’m curious to understand why you think trading away realm identity and networking (not being able to continue playing with people you meet on other realms) isn’t a bad thing.
Secondly, I’m curious to understand why you think that cross-realm play is absolutely necessary. If you’re talking about “dead realms”, or just less active ones, you’re talking about a group of players that are statistically very small compared against the typical experience of whole population – And I think that alone means it makes no sense to change the game for everyone in order to fix a problem that doesn’t exist in principle.
The problem is that most of us who don’t want dungeon finder do care about that. And dismissing our criticism of the system by saying “there’s no cost” is not only adding useless spam to the discussion, it’s not helping your case.
How should those of us who would be affected by dungeon finder’s implementation be made whole if and when that ever did happen?
inb4 you completely ignore the point of this post and say “You’re whole whether we have RDF or not”
What’s preventing you from doing so?
1,000,000,000% THIS. Preach 
it Brothah!
So many of these people haven’t watched the movie Cars, and it shows.
What you seem to not understand is that the necessity of communication to form a group is often the first and most powerful thing that opens people up to having interactions with one another. The last time I played Retail, people seldom ever talked, and most of the time when someone did, everyone else was totally silent, or maybe didn’t even speak the same language. It was like /1 in an unpopulated questing zone.
When the norm is to click a button and you just end up inside the dungeon without having to say or do anything, it’s kind of one of those “objects at rest tend to stay at rest” situations. Dungeon finder doesn’t encourage interactions whatsoever, but traditional group building guarantees at least some.
Individuals like Redhead and I have experienced far more friendly and cooperative interactions in groups that were only possible through interactions versus groups that were built by an algorithm.
No, the argument is that more convenience isn’t always better, especially when that convenience specifically means removing parts of the game that were intended to be there, such as communication, cooperation, traveling through a vast world – things that some of us still enjoy.
Once again, 100,000,000% THIS. It’s brazenly obvious how the game went through a massive paradigm shift after Activision took over and started calling shots. If the intent in Classic moving forward is to keep the game more in line with its original trajectory before that happened, then dungeon finder is the very first major milestone in Classic history where the WoW team is at a crossroads – Do reimplement things that they know were mistakes in hindsight, or do they surgically remove the cancer now that they have a second chance?
Even if the idea isn’t to stay true to the “original spirit of WoW”, it at least makes perfect business sense for Classic and Retail to be as dissimilar as possible, or they run the risk of their Retail players leaving the environment where they’re being milked in industry record-breaking ways.
Literally no one is saying that dungeon finder is the only difference between Old WoW and the atrocity it eventually became. What people are saying is that they’ve already experienced it and didn’t like it.
Stop putting words in peoples’ mouths.
More traitorous critic fallacy. 
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This is their favorite way to distract from actual discussion, then when you bring up what you were actually saying, they claim you moved the goal posts.
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Hey 
So let me start here by saying that my realm experience in Vanilla was awesome. We weren’t a large realm, but we had three major raiding guilds (two alliance and one horde) who all competed for realm firsts, along with many much smaller guilds. The interactions between these guilds, some drama around kills, and especially around world bosses, really drove the culture on our server. We also had a major PvP guild on the Horde side, and whenever our guild (one of the big Alliance PvE guilds) met them in PvP, it was on! Not only that, but you tended to run into the same folks around capitals, trading, or just running dungeons. We were a community. Definitely some great times. So I absolutely do think that realm identity was a very positive part of the original Vanilla experience
With that being said, like several things in Classc, realm identity just didn’t make the transition into the modern era. It would be a nice thing to have if we could, but we don’t, and it’s entirely player driven (though enabled by Blizzard). Back in those days we had what, maybe 5000 people on a realm and most realms had enough players on them to sustain. Today, realms are much, much larger and players have self-organized into mono-faction mega servers, leaving many extremely low-pop realms in their wake.
My own server, Pagle, while not a mega server (in that we haven’t seen a meaningful queue since 2019), is extremely populated. My guild is the community I see all the time, but random players out in the world? If I have an interaction with someone, I don’t often see that person again. It’s just the nature of playing on a server with so many people on it.
At this point, the experience I have in WotLK classic feels pretty much the same as it does on retail. It’s for this reason why I think it’s acceptable to give up realm identity… because by and large, the WoW Classic player base has already done so. Had Blizzard not allowed transfers and large server sizes in the first place, perhaps this might be a different conversation, but what’s done is done… and so while I loved that aspect of Vanilla, it just didn’t make it in the transition to modern, Classic WoW.
When serious, meaningful, and engaging conversation around RDF comes up, a common argument people have is just not being able to find a group. I actually don’t really have this problem. I don’t mind waiting for a group, but I almost always find one in the leveling dungeons and always do for anything at level cap. However, as mentioned, my server has a really good population (Pagle best server NA! :D). I’m not unsympathetic to people who are on smaller servers, or even on servers who are maybe a little more hardcore than mine (ie, only raid logging, no interest in playing). Should these folks have to pay a transfer fee to escape that? Especially the folks on dead servers who, through no fault of their own, found themselves left behind one of the several mass exoduses that occurred? I dunno, that doesn’t seem really fair.
A lot of those folks are looking for RDF to solve their problem… and in fact, it did. If you were on a low pop realm wanting to do dungeons, RDF absolutely gave you the opportunity to do so because it connected you with people on other realms, greatly expanding the pool of players available to you.
This is why I think cross-realm is necessary. Players should not have to incur an additional financial cost to solve a problem that other players created for them. They should be allowed to play the game too.
So in summary, while realm identity was an awesome part of vanilla that I love and wish had been recaptured in Classic, it just didn’t. Because realm identity doesn’t exist in a meaningful way, giving it up so that players on servers where it’s very difficult to find dungeon groups can have access to what they need in order to play the game doesn’t seem a heavy cost to pay.
In this sense, moving towards the retail model of entirely cross-realm (and perhaps even cross-faction), seems like it would be a big win across the board. The only alternative I can think of would be to take drastic steps to break up realm populations into much smaller pieces and try to force realm identity back on the player base, which feels like a mistake because it’s just clearly not something that the player base values these days.
(^^ Crucifixiän, where are you? This is what a strawman argument looks like. ^^ )
Please quote anyone who has said anything like that. Certainly not myself, Redhead or Tubbly, who are mostly the ones from our side having this conversation with you. Enough with putting words in peoples’ mouths. If our arguments are incorrect, you shouldn’t need to inject them with these absurd lies to defeat them.
By making a conscious decision to use a method that takes longer, much longer when there are fewer people using it, and one that offers fewer and/or smaller rewards.
It’s the only system… What are you talking about?
lmao
It’s like trying to have a discussion with a petulent 4 year-old…
- Cross-realm PvP =/= cross-realm dungeons
- I don’t like cross-realm Wintergrasp, and I didn’t ask for it. It’s a band-aid solution.
- Why can’t you stay on-topic? I specifically reply to individual concepts in posts to avoid this very problem.
Those numbers literally came from researching numbers. 
You are more disappointing with every single reply.
LO L
Oh my god dude, I’m starting to think you’re just trolling here. You are absolutely, unequivocally incorrect. Please tell me where you’re getting this information. I’m guessing Wowclassicpop’s activity metrics? 
No, mega servers are a cancer in WoW Classic. Why do you keep asserting things about me that you have no idea about? Like, you can easily just read my post history if you want some hints. If you had any clue who I was and what I think, you’d realize how utterly clueless this makes you look.
I guess this is just proof that your outbursts are dishonest, melodramatic and emotional. You’re not actually arguing what I’m saying, you’re arguing against a lie that you’ve conjured up (Once again Crucifixiän, look here!), without realizing that my post history is proof that you’re just making all of this up as you go.
*in the last raid tier after 75% of the content had passed
Telling people who are hellbent on having a feature to go enjoy that very feature where it does exist is a solution. Telling people who dislike dungeon finder to play Classic Era instead of Wrath Classic makes no sense, because dungeon finder isn’t present in either of these.
Nudged you a little closer.
Guild banks were never planned to be implemented at TBC’s launch. Kaivax specifically said they didn’t have plans for it, and made no mention of any reason other than that.
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Common theme seems to be most anti-rdf posters never played back then.
Also, more importantly, they completely ignore the reality of what’s going on in Classic. That reality defeats all these ridiculous anti-rdf arguments. There is no community building aspect to group forming. It’s just a toxic mess. The lack of RDF promotes that toxicity. The leveling dungeon experience is dead. You meet and interact with far fewer players without RDF.
Taking it out is simply bad for the game, bad for the players, bad for alts, bad for everything. There’s a reason only pseudo elitist gatekeepers and trolls are happy about its removal.
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- Dungeon finder
- Some inadequacies of the LFG tool
These are different topics. It’s possible to dislike both of them at the same time.
You couldn’t possibly be talking to me, because if you were, you’d be hilariously incorrect. I think maybe you clicked reply on the wrong post.
I’ve played WoW since right before Wrath’s pre-patch. It was like half a year before dungeon finder came out that I had “awakened” in WoW and known what I was doing.
Yeah, it’s easy enough to just laugh it off when you’re dealing with brazen liars, but it is a little annoying to have to keep engaging with them to make sure that other perspectives are still present on the forums.
They’re very lucky that so few people here stick around long enough to see through the thinly-veiled lies.
That’s awesome! I’m sad I didn’t get to experience as much of Vanilla as you did. Maybe once Wrath Classic is over there will be another chance to play on a fresh Vanilla server or something like the fabled “Classic+” servers some people ask for.
So, I completely see and understand where you’re coming from, with servers being grotesquely overpopulated. I agree with you about that scrubbing away a lot of realm identity. That being said, I’m curious why you wouldn’t want the WoW team to cut off the head of the snake by actually regulating population distribution. At the end of the day, mega servers and dead servers alike are a failing on Blizzard’s part in my opinion, and I would much rather see them fix population distribution rather than shoehorning cross-realm play into the game and calling it a successful day.
Respectfully, I’d suggest it might be a better thing for the game in the long run (in late Wrath, Cataclysm and beyond, or even in unknown future versions of Classic) to ask for realms to be locked when they become too large and to offer mergers/transfers/realm resets/etc. when they become too small rather than fixing a symptom of the problem.
I’d also like to point out that I think it’s a bit unrealistic to think that they might ever implement cross-realm PvE content but also keep dungeon finder out of the game. If it truly ever comes to that, I’m thinking that they’re going to open up the floodgates a bit, especially with how the forums have been spammed and will continue to be spammed incessantly about dungeon finder.
Same here, for sure. My main issue is that, while being forced to spend money to transfer elsewhere or completely restart on a new realm is indeed a very ugly solution, I also think it’s far less destructive to the whole population and experiences the game offers if it’s handled in a way that doesn’t introduce the canonical “Retail features” into Classic.
As I said above, and have been saying for almost a year now if my memory serves me, players on small or dead realms deserve much better than to simply have one of their problems solved through cross-realm 5-man content. And if your suggestion is for cross-realm connection to extend further than just 5-man content, where do we draw the line and stop? Do we also allow cross-realm raids? And then we honestly may as well just enable cross-realm zones so that the leveling/questing experience is consistent with all the other cross-realm stuff. And then there’s the Auction House. It just seems like realm mergers are a better solution for all of these issues because, while they might not solve the ultimate problem, it at least doesn’t introduce a major change for 100% of the population.
And I’ll point out that, statistically speaking, the people who play on small or dead servers make up a very small portion of the playerbase. They still matter just as much as any other slice of the population, but I’m hesitant to agree to huge changes to the game for everyone to mitigate the problems of an edge-case population.
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(Quick side note, it might be helpful for long posts like these to address one person at a time. It makes it easier to interpret and, if I agree with your message, I can 
it without attaching that to the other things that you’ve expressed. Not that there’s anything wrong with them, they just aren’t at me so I’m only focusing on the part that is. Just something to consider but by no means an issue. Carrying on!)
I thought about that but I think this is just one of those things that didn’t make the cut. I think I mentioned somewhere in our post, but the only way to do that would be for Blizzard to take some pretty destructive steps in order to correct it, which I don’t think folks (myself included) would enjoy.
I also think that, while I truly loved those times, it’s not a super big priority for me. I think that closer community exists on Classic Era (which is probably where I’ll go once WotLK is done) so it can still be found, but for WotLK folks seem to prioritize having people to play with more than the idea of a realm community that, to be honest, may or may not materialize.
(I had something here about how other things, such as difficulty and content pacing, didn’t play out the same way we had hoped either. I’m cutting it though since it added three paragraphs to an already lengthy post haha, sorry!)
I don’t know that this is true. I mean, I was recently told that you can cross-realm group for PvP (though it’s an awkward and manual process), so the capability to group cross-realm exists. Which makes sense because it’s the Legion client so it was already there, they just had to expressly disable it for Vanilla Classic. It’s not really a stretch to imagine that they use the LFG tool to allow players to list cross-realm and discover other players who have done the same.
I don’t believe we need to have automatic match making and teleportation to dungeons to have cross-realm, if this was something the community and Blizzard agreed would be a positive addition to the game.
I agree, they absolutely do, this is just a step. Honestly, I feel the retail solution of just fully cross-realm (and cross-faction) for all forms of content is ultimately the right way to go. I don’t think all features of retail are bad ones, even if some definitely are.
It absolutely is a compromise here, but the cost to me and how I play the game isn’t great, and I suspect that is true for most folks playing Classic these days. So while the cost to me is small, the benefit to other players who aren’t in the same situation as me (ie, on a healthy realm) is very great.
(I had some stuff here looking at some realm data but I’m cutting it because it’s not really relevant to my point and maybe suggests a more argumentative response to you than I intend, which is not at all the direction I want to go 
)
Even if they make up a very small portion, they still matter. One option would be for Blizzard to just close up those realms and offer those folks the ability to transfer to new realms, but we’ve also seen that queues are an issue. Whether or not you believe them, Blizzard have been clear that realm population limits is a problem they can’t reasonably solve with their current resources.
Cross-realm solves this… and the only reason not to consider cross-realm is because of what you have to give up to have it. So I encourage you to really think about what you want out of not having cross-realm, and whether or not you’re really getting that.
For me, the answer is no, I’m not getting that… and so it’s easy for me to advocate for cross-realm here. It’s just not really going to change the way I play WotLK. This is probably true for most. I would be curious to know whether or not any of those small realms do feel like server identity is a part of their WotLK experience, and whether or not they feel it should be preserved.
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The LFG tool is just great … have no clue what you are talking about.
A lot of the people who claim it is unusable and how we need rdf probably domt even try to use lfg efficiently, if at all (some of them have openly admitted to just raid logging, and i am sure so.e of the complainers dont play the game at all).
Yes it has issues, but its very useable.
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At low levels? Questing being the only remotely viable way to get a character running.
I’ve simply done them too many times and the outcome is always the same.
Again, I’m simply just going to disagree that right clicking and hitting invite or request invite is in any way or shape a meaningful social interaction.
You might use the tool in a different way but that really isn’t how it’s generally used.
And I can prove that too - simply type something in the note box and I guarantee you that you’ll get invited to groups that run counter to what you typed.
Okay, but it isn’t here now.
So we both lose.
One of them can be fixed easily, the other requires a complete and utter game overhaul to turn the game into a cooperative experience rather than a competitive one such as, for example, GW2.
Which, by the way, is a great game that is very dear to me.
You’ve not paid attention then.
And your claim of all the bad RDF brings with it is a slippery slope fallacy.
Simply logging into the game disproves all of it.
What of it?
I’m blatantly stating that I don’t value the notion of staring at a tool or flying across the world. So it’s not a fallacy. I think it’s trash gameplay, and I use the word gameplay incredible loosely.
Dude please, you prattled on about the LFG chat and then suddenly when countered you prattled on about the LFG tool.
They’re not the same.
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