#nochanges You Think You Did, but You Didn't

[Wirt-stalagg]

No, it doesn’t. Farming old dungeons, it’s less.

No one said anything about farming old dungeons, but legacy content does give legacy loot.

If you go do BRD 25H on live right now it will drop the loot for a full 25 man.

In current content PL gives about 20-25% more loot then ML did.

[Elaice-blades-edge (Elaice)]

So why not point out the other options? You keep criticizing everything he says while presenting no alternatives. The burden is on you now if you wish to continue your claims he is making a false dichotomy.

[Flocket-mankrik]

BFA was 15 years of changes, yet you suggest that minor QoL changes would implement take the game to retail. That’s a false equivalency, first of all.

You still haven’t explained the how.

You also engage in a false dichotomy by suggesting the game can only be Classic or Retail, while in reality there are numerous states this game has existed in and a nearly infinite number more it could exist in.

And the point of Classic is to be “like Vanilla”. Not BC. Not Wrath. Not Cata. Not MoP. Not WoD. Not Legion. Not BFA. But “like Vanilla”. Deviating away from Vanilla further with more non-Vanilla features, doesn’t help make it more Vanilla-like.

I’d also suggest that you’re splitting (Classic is all good and Retail is all bad). That’s 3 separate logical disconnects in one argument.

OK, this is has nothing to do with #nochanges?

The #nochanges community is a joke. Not all changes that have been made are infrastructure changes.

But they don’t retain the “spirit” of Vanilla, which you have yet to state what you feel is the “spirit” of Vanilla, yet. Since you claim, I have no leg to stand on as to what constitutes as the “spirit” of the Vanilla. But you haven’t bothered giving your input either.

No one said anything about farming old dungeons,

I have been, and it’s still less loot.

[Ezgg-rattlegore]

So why not point out the other options? You keep criticizing everything he says while presenting no alternatives. The burden is on you now if you wish to continue your claims he is making a false dichotomy.

The false dichotomy is already proven. There have been numerous, some very successful and well loved, expansions between Classic and current Retail, all of which constituted changes to the previous expansion. OP suggested that there can’t be a happy medium due to the slippery slope to retail, meaning that the game either exists in his perfect/all good state(Classic) or all bad state (Retail). The other options here are the factual reality that:

1. This game is not Vanilla and never can be due to the client. Blizzard has also made several changes to cut down on griefing, such as flight master respawns and aggro range (off the top of my head). One look at the bug report forum shows how far off base this game is from Vanilla.

2. Quality of life changes can be made without the game becoming BFA. A constructive conversation would include discussing what changes are reasonable. A constructive conversation does not include using fallacy to attack anyone who think that certain QoL changes would make the game more enjoyable. OP is welcome to think the game would be most enjoyable without changes and to express those sentiments. His arguments are poisonous and should be treated as such.

[Flocket-mankrik]

The false dichotomy is already proven. There have been numerous, some very successful and well loved, expansions between Classic and current Retail, all of which constituted changes to the previous expansion. OP suggested that there can’t be a happy medium due to the slippery slope to retail, meaning that the game either exists in his perfect/all good state(Classic) or all bad state (Retail). The other options here are the factual reality that:

1. This game is not Vanilla and never can be due to the client. Blizzard has also made several changes to cut down on griefing, such as flight master respawns and aggro range (off the top of my head).
2. Quality of life changes can be made without the game becoming BFA. A constructive conversation would include discussing what changes are reasonable. A constructive conversation does not include using fallacy to attack anyone who think that certain QoL changes would make the game more enjoyable. OP is welcome to think the game would be most enjoyable without changes and to express those sentiments. His arguments are poisonous and should be treated as such.

But see, people are already using the excuse of “changes already happened” to further implement more changes, before we end up right back where we started, demanding Classic, again. Which is the whole point of my point, is people think they do, but they don’t, once they realize they like all the features that Retail has.

#notallpeople

[Wirt-stalagg]

I have been, and it’s still less loot.

I haven’t farmed an old dungeon to test lately, but it should also be under legacy loot and drop full loot for a 5 man.

The only time personal loot really applies is current content where it drops more loot then group loot or ml, which is objective, provable fact

[Flocket-mankrik]

I haven’t farmed an old dungeon to test lately, but it should also be under legacy loot and drop full loot for a 5 man.

The only time personal loot really applies is current content where it drops more loot then group loot or ml.

I haven’t touched Retail since Legion. During that time, when I would farm old dungeons, I would get diddly squat from Bosses. Thanks to PL, and me not being able to change it back to Need before Greed or whatever. PL downsized the loot.

[Wirt-stalagg]

Ah, that explains it, they fixed that in BfA by making old content Legacy loot

You get as much loot as you would in a full size group.

5 mans will give you 5 man loot quantity, same with 10s and 25s. Flex sizes will give you that of 30 iirc.

[Flocket-mankrik]

Ah, that explains it, they fixed that in BfA by making old content Legacy loot

You get as much loot as you would in a full size group.

5 mans will give you 5 man loot quantity, same with 10s and 25s. Flex sizes will give you that of 30 iirc.

Still, that was one of the big reasons I quit 'cause they totally butchered farming old dungeons. Not the only reason why I quit, though. Still not a fan of PL, simply because it just feels a little impersonal.

[Wirt-stalagg]

I did say it has no place in an MMO

[Flocket-mankrik]

I did say it has no place in an MMO

I’m glad to agree on something LOL

The aggression seems to have died down a little. Until the next person who doesn’t want to scroll through over 250+ pages of back and forth comes along and starts the endless loop, again.

Anyway, I’m tired and have a sore throat. So, I’mma try to get some rest to help heal. Later y’all!

[Tubbly-terenas (Tubbly)]

It is steam rolling because they “don’t effect the game, right”? Implement all four of them because “they don’t effect the game”, Classic is no longer Classic, anymore. “Discussing” them is always the same. Either we accept the “suggestion” or nip it the butt. There’s no in between.

It’s only a matter of time, before we repeat history.

Your logic is flawed. You’re calling it steam rolling but not one of those changes is linked to the other. There is no relationship that can be attributed between them, yet you are drawing one. You are also drawing the conclusion that, were even one of those proposed suggestions implemented, they all must be implemented. This too is faulty logic.

We have the benefit of 15 years of knowledge and progress on our side. If Blizzard were to decide to make changes and build on top of classic, we have a better understanding of the impact of those changes. We know that adding flying to the game has a significant impact on how people perceive the world. We know that a guild bank doesn’t really change how people play the game. In this hypothetical world where classic were to be changed, there is knowledge with which to make informed decisions on which changes would be beneficial, and which changes might have a more negative impact.

It’s ok to not like a change, but you should have a better reason for not liking it than simply because it is a change. Everybody is welcome to their opinion, but hate for the sake of hate is something to be discouraged.

[Goodie-ashkandi]

Not really it was most likely the numbers they saw in the PSers. People ask for vanilla since TBC

[Ezgg-rattlegore]

Don’t bother, friend. I’ve pointed out the slippery slope argument being made multiple times and was completely ignored.

[Jedditelol-deathwing]

Hey, yeah – I still think Achievements would be a positive addition to Classic.

"OH YOU DO HUH JEDDITE WELL WHY DONT WE ADD PANDA MONKS, TRANSMOGRIFICATION, AND WARMODE TOO, HUH? HUH!? WHAT ABOUT THAT JEDDITE, HUH!?!?"

Okay, yeah – calm down.

[Holymirax-ashkandi]

Enough is enough. Can’t handle it, Retail is that way —>

Or just maybe, we do like Classic the way it is, but would also be happy if some things changed. #bringbackBarbers

Very little in life is black or white, it’s mostly just a mess of grey haze.

Barbershop was never in vanilla wow, making it impossible to bring back.

[Holymirax-ashkandi]

I dont like any of the changes that are currently in the game I certainly dont want more. this is the very slippery slopp we been warning about from the start.

Ok. So, granted some of the proposed changes being asked for aren’t great.

But there’s some that are so trivial I can’t see how you guys can be so viciously opposed to it.

A barbershop will do nothing to fundamentally alter ANYTHING about the game.

Transmog would. I agree that transmog should be left out, but they should add the ability to Dye armor.

This is how you come to a common ground and move beyond the bulwark you guys set up and actually converse about some sound changes that wouldn’t be bad at all.

No, a common ground, or a compromise, would mean everyone gets something out of it. You pro changers cant offer the people who just want authentic vanilla anything, so what do you have to compromise with?

[Ezgg-rattlegore]

So you should get Vanilla (Classic isn’t Vanilla) and anyone who wants any sort of QoL should kick rocks?

[Holymirax-ashkandi]

What is the design goal of classic wow?
To be as close to vanilla as possible. You have a game that caters to player wishes and has all sorts of quality of life improvements

[Ezgg-rattlegore]

What is the design goal of classic wow?
To be as close to vanilla as possible.

Have a quote on that? Classic is built on a Legion client ffs. It can and never will be close to Vanilla. We are playing on a pre-TBC patch, on a client with messed up spell batching, and with time gated content.

You have a game that caters to player wishes

Some players’ wishes. Many of us are just here because it’s better than retail and would rather be playing WoTLK or TBC. Oddly enough, you bring up compromise but are unwilling to do so yourself.

has all sorts of quality of life improvements

Ah, yes. The joy of healers being unable to kill mobs and having to spend 100g a weak to play the game as a baseline. What joyous quality of life. I’m not even a healer and I can appreciate how screwed up that is. The joy of being unable to change your characters appearance- because that ruins the game sooooo much for everyone else. I’m honestly not someone who really gives a damn about aesthetics (I’m playing dwarf, ffs), but the fact that there’s so much push back against that kind of addition to the game is mind boggling. The argument comes across as “No! You can’t have fun that won’t impact me in any way! Why? Because that’s not VANILLA.”