easy answer here. when you roll a paladin, you know what you are getting into at this point. if you want to dps in raids…don’t roll a paladin, its that simple. if you want to be able to be multiple rolls play a warrior. unless you are a streamer, or are playing in a guild with a bunch of friends who don’t care if you are ret, don’t waste your own time. There are tons of people on my server who are getting to 60 or are close looking for raiding guilds and want to raid as ret and there arent enough spots to go around.
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Ill be honest, i love paladins and the complexity of it.
But,
Youll need to do maximum effort to dps or tank as paladin.
I rerolled to Warrior, and will continue to level paladin as an ALT.
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Your dps on patchwerk only need to hit like 332 dps to beat the fight. No reason to not bring other specs since they all can double that at minimum…
This is why personally when everyone was screaming out for vanilla, i support them because it means we will either get TBC (which is for the most part, like vanilla but the spec balance was better) or classic+ (where I’m sure they will do spec balance)
The idea that your guild will exclude you or force you to play a certain way, is just as ridiculous as the idea that you need an entire raid full of “optimal” race/class/build combos playing at 100% efficiency to clear the content.
Just play with normies, and everything will be fine.
Best in slot gear isn’t even available for the spec yet, and it is pulling dps numbers that nearly meets minimum dps requirements for Naxx raiding.
No one is ever going to claim that rets do “as good” dps as warriors or rogues, but they are perfectly capable of being in the raid group without preventing you from killing any boss that will be in the game, and also providing buffs, auras, cleanses, and off healing when needed.
Classic wow raiding isnt going to ever be hard enough to fixate on the mindset of needing to stack your raid with only the best DPS available, ignoring all other benefits.
And if you are still going to have that mind set, a ret will still always be the best option for Nightfall weilding if you want that debuff.
Thats the thing that i see as a problem. A Class that has a Best In Slot setup somewhere in the later parts of the endgame …
So how are Paladins supposed to reach that? By Healing their way up? Or by pulling the raid down in damage?
I mean, i know Retribution Paladins can be a godsend in a Dungeon, doing DPS, spot heal as needed and if the Heal is a Druid and someone dies… provide Revival services(as Paladins close to never die easy 
).
But … this is how i remember Vanilla … its not the best.
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Well, their best set is like… tier 2, so they aren’t waiting too long (and honestly can start there once it opens, since it isn’t much harder than MC), and they aren’t so much lower than other classes (when played right and with consumables) to the point where they are hurting you.
Yeah, Tier 1 had allot Int and Spirit on it, Tier 2 also Strength if memory Serves? God is that long ago when i discussed that with our Paladins back then.
But i still think this is a big flaw … supposed there should be adequate gear to grab while Leveling … and at 60 Gearing … can’t be that you’re a Paladin and the first goal is to reach 60, and then to get your butt somehow into BWL to grab Tier 2.
But ah well. I guess there will be quite some competition.
Paladins were extremely useful in raiding to Alliance. Did you even vanilla, bro?
That’s probably more of a Paladin problem in general, tbh. The class is waaaaaaaay overrepresented now 'cause streamers.
Luckily, the pally healers generally don’t even want Tier 2 because +healing only items are waaaay better than +healing/damage, and the 8 piece set is a damage proc on melee.
Got started late in raiding, but yes.
Point is that ret pallies can’t fall back on the idea that they bring ‘utility’ and a rogue doesn’t - because the raid will already have 5 holy pallies bringing the same utility.
Not the case in 5 mans, which makes hybrids an awesome thing to have along in a 5 man. But with 40 people, everybody specializes, leaving hybrids out in the cold.
Not in vanilla. Ret pallies fall back on the idea that they have friends and/or people of mutual acquaintance that actually want to raid with the person playing the ret pally. There is no reason, none whatsoever, to pop a blood vessel trying to min-max your class comp in Classic raiding. The only people who think like that are the spreadsheet nerd robots that often inhabit retail.
That’s about right, minus the overly aggressive talk about “spreadsheet nerds in retail”. If you think the gatekeeping about bad specs wasn’t part of vanilla I have to wonder if YOU vanilla’ed.
The guy I was talking to claimed that ret pallies could justify themselves in a raid through their “utility”. I was pointing out that they can’t.
Our GM was a pally who played ret when he could. He even got Sulfuras. But when the going got tough and we needed healers, he knew that was where he could make the bigger contribution.
Tigole says get in the kitchen and heal.
let’s look at how Prot Paladins are doing in MC on classic right now:
https://clips.twitch.tv/RacyBoringMacaroniFUNgineer
AskalonToday at 7:55 PM
GBoK spam during raids in a nuthshell
after OT’ing a MC tonight lol
“The Paladin pulled agro off of me again…”
1337 lulz right there!
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I think this is the part people forget the most.
Classic/Vanilla’s tuning is so way out of whack, so absurd with just how far you can take some builds, that the best of them are literal overkill. Not just by a small amount, but by such lengths that it can actually break encounters.
In addition to this, comparing a single DPS’ individual throughput to another single DPS out of an entire raid isn’t logical. It’s not any individual’s damage that matters, but overall raid damage. A paladin contributes to damage in more ways than their own personal throughput; naturally, a retribution specced paladin will add more on top of this via their own. This, when properly utilized, nets out to a ret paladin increasing the raid damage by the same amount a pure DPS would.
This is why raid leaders and better players constantly have to yell at their DPS to stop worrying about meters; it’s not about personal damage, not about Tommy doing 20% more than Jimmy on Patchwerk, but overall raid damage. Blessing of Might, for example, is pretty terrible on its own, but across multiple melee, it is insanely strong.
Another thing people do not seem to realize is that someone swinging in melee has a much easier time using instant-cast buffs and whatnot than someone hard-casting. You cannot buff/cleanse and heal at the same time, but you can buff/cleanse while meleeing since instant attacks don’t interrupt a swing timer like they would a cast bar.
This is also the reason why Blizzard eschewed the hybrid design idea; most of what they provide is behind the scenes, thus difficult to quantify/track, and difficult to balance. Naturally, this means the majority of the players will interpret data at a glance, leading to an undeserved stigma, leading to an abrasive atmosphere that is not good for the community health of the game.
When people aren’t allowed to play what they want, how they want, because it’s perceived as terrible by others regardless of whether it’s correct or not, they stop playing. Simple as that. Thus you get class overhauls where hybrid DPS’ utility capacity was lessened in favor of increasing their personal throughput in later expansions, followed by the isolation of specs to where each spec could be tuned as if it were its own class.
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The guy said they had 12 mages so he was doing nearly 1k tps.
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Because you knew that was going to happen.
Set yoru sights alittle lower and find a guild that isn’t stupid.