Nobody wants 10 boss raids

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Hardcorelana-bloodsail-buccaneers

Long time raider - have to agree. With the ease of gear acquisition so strongly favoring M+, I think most raid tiers should be relatively few bosses and more drops. Perhaps we get two 3 boss raids per tier or something like that. If we get a truly epic story significant raid it can be a bit longer but yeah 8-10 boss raids are a bit much when gear can be obtained elsewhere for less time less skill less friction.

Blizz could also stop clubbing mythic+ with so many nerfs that its max power difficult level is similar in difficulty to writing your name in crayon.

[Pyroxenia-moon-guard]

Raids would be way better if it was just boss-after-boss instead of trash-boss-trash-boss.

[Kekmor-argent-dawn]

@Hardcorelana-bloodsail-buccaneers

Long time raider - have to agree. With the ease of gear acquisition so strongly favoring M+

This is the point most people seem to be not reading or comprehending. It’s like half the replies never got past the title. There is less friction, less time commitment and more rewards from M+. 10 boss raids just don’t make sense anymore.

If Blizzard wants people to raid, there needs to be an option (beyond LFR) that is in the 0.5-1 hour time commitment level.

If you want to do all the wings in one go with your guild of friends, you can still do that. If other people only do 1 wing how does that hurt you? A few commenters pointed out that “you can do half the bosses on one night and then do the rest on another”. That’s technically true but c’mon, all it takes is a few no shows and now getting replacements is an issue. Sure there’s flex but who wants to commit to doing bosses they’ve already done that week?

[Hardcorelana-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Since BfA it’s just been easier to complete the max level key than even heroic bosses.

[Aqure-westfall]

well I sure don’t want 10 boss raids - I might raid if they had mini raids of 2-3 bosses.

[Azurathel-moon-guard]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

WoW used to have 1-3 boss raids. Vanilla/Classic has Onyxia, for example.

Onyxia is the only one.
MC, both AQ’s, ZG, BWL, vanilla naxx… All these raids are slap full of bosses.

Your own example is just bad.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

the vast majority of players who raid, only queue LFR

No. Of the people who full clear the raid, in a typical season 50-60% do so on heroic or higher.

[Gundai-malganis (Gundai)]

WoW is designed around two groups. World First Race nonsense and the elitist mythic raid logger.

That’s why there is so much focus on raiding in WoW.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

While his eample was the only one in Vanilla/classic, there were more in later expansions:

BC had Gruul and Mag
Wrath had Eye of Etnerity, Both sanctums, Vault of Arcahavon,
Cata had Thron of 4 winds and Baradin Hold
Smallest raid in MoP was Terrace of Endless Spring at 4 bosses
WoD had no small raids, but then it was shorted on raid content
Legion had Trial of Valor
BFA had Crucible of Storms
no small raids for SL or DF

[Miragegun-skull-rock]

Agreed they should of kept it small esp since it doesnt really drop loot, mounts, or cosmetics

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

WoW used to have 1-3 boss raids.

And Blizzard tried them in legion and BFA, not many people did them. Even more so for the BFA one.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

To be fair though, in Legion and BFA they were released as filler raids instead of release like Ony , Eye of Eternity, Gruul , mag, etc. Being removed from the main gearing path likely did them no favors,

[Brewa-hyjal]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

the vast majority of players who raid, only queue LFR.

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

The vast majority of players don’t raid at all.

These statements are almost certainly false. We don’t have current data, since Blizzard changed how API data is available, but we know for a fact from sites that used to monitor API data that it works out like this:

• 40% of the playerbase consistently gets Ahead of the Curve, so they’re clearing Heroic raid
• 20% of the playerbase consisently gets the raid achievement, but not Ahead of the Curve, so they’re clearing on Normal or LFR (there’s no way to distinguish Normal from LFR based on achievements)
• 40% of the playerbase doesn’t get the raid achievement

So:

1. Most of the playerbase does do the raid.
2. The most popular raid difficulty is Heroic, by far.
3. Twice as many people clear the raid on Heroic as clear on Normal & LFR combined but not Heroic.

Let’s stick to the facts.

[Kekmor-argent-dawn]

@Brewa-hyjal

40% of the playerbase consistently gets Ahead of the Curve

32% of Wowhead Profiles. That’s not the same thing.

@Brewa-hyjal

so they’re clearing Heroic raid

How many of them are simply buying AOTC?

@Brewa-hyjal

20% of the playerbase consisently gets the raid achievement,

Again, Wowhead profiles.

@Brewa-hyjal

40% of the playerbase

Wowhead profiles. Let’s look at Season 3:

• 55% of profiles have the Normal/LFR achievement
• 26% of profiles have the Heroic achievement
• 1% of profiles have the Mythic achievement

Warcraftlogs has about 10x the Heroic clears than Mythic clears so already we have a discrepancy. A bunch of people are Heroic raiding and not uploading logs, which already strongly suggests there are a ton of Heroic achievements that are one-offs (ie likely bought).

Unfortunately the achievements don’t split Normal and LFR and given anyone with the Heroic achievement has the Normal/LFR achievement, about as many profiles do Normal/LFR vs Heroic? No shot. Nobody believes that. It just shows how skewed the Wowhead profile data is. You need to install a client for that.

If you want to see how skewed the Wowhead profile data is, just look at the number of profiles with certain hard-to-get mounts eg Voidtalon (6%), Invincible (19%), Ashes of A’lar (31%), or achievements eg Undersea Usurper (the Nazjatar meta; 14%).

@Brewa-hyjal

Let’s stick to the facts.

Let’s stop pretending Wowhead profiles are representative of hte player base.

[Brewa-hyjal]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

@Brewa-hyjal

40% of the playerbase consistently gets Ahead of the Curve

32% of Wowhead Profiles. That’s not the same thing.

I’m not even talking about wowhead profiles, those are worthless trash. I’m talking about people using API data before Blizzard cut off the stream.

[Sentenzå-sargeras]

The hope/cope is that with Delves existing, Blizzard can treat Delves like a welfare loot machine and let M+ be hard. It won’t solve any major problems for the game as a whole but I’d love for M+ to actually feel rewarding rather than knowing that I will trivially get the best gear from M+ the first or second week of a new season.

[Twíggí-area-52]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

LFR Raszageth, for example, is ridiculous.

Wut lol?

It’s ridiculous because no one wants to learn the fight the fight is easy

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

Won’t delves make m+ feel less rewarding because delves will be easier and more so?

It’ll just be like the raid and mythic plus balance issue.

[Snozex-area-52]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

I 100% believe that participation data on retail and in Remix will bear this out: the vast majority of players who raid, only queue LFR

You would be vastly incorrect.

The numbers for LFR and normal are equal to heroic alone. Since LFR and normal are two separate modes with the same achievement the majority of raiders raid at a heroic level.

The numbers from DF also back this.

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

WoW used to have 1-3 boss raids. Vanilla/Classic has Onyxia, for example. Players like this.

Personally?

I liked having a mixture.

Many content creators, chatrooms and other forum outlets (eg. reddit) have stated they use to enjoy the raid-scale climb. So if you didn’t necessarily get something from the larger raid – You could still get a decent filler from one of the shorter raids.

It was also great for people who didn’t have time to do a full clear on a large raid — or simply with small guilds who wanted a quick run completion on a small raid, or people who were new to raiding & wanted to start with something small.