So the Alliance are posting 100% losses and you’re over here claiming to lose “many” times? Don’t tell me you considered organized premades beating you “sometimes” a balanced situation.
Only time I ever saw defense, even in premades, was when people teleported back to rep turn ins, and we had enough people who didn’t care about honor(only rep) who were willing to teleport back and be bored for the rest of the run because you were never gonna rejoin the group at that point
4-5 on defense can work, but it was so boring to have to constantly have 5 people sitting there doing nothing else all game. Might see 4-5 horde trying to backdoor early before they saw defense and the rest of the time you might well have been jerkin it.
… seriously? i regularly see groups of 15+ doing it every single game.
I’ve had one loss since the changes, that one (in about 6 games) but I had many over the past 2 months under those circumstances.
when I am in AV I rarely see pugs groups either all together or split up doing objectives. They repeatedly die the same way, stand together all clumped up to get AoE’d and generally don’t run past battles that don’t need to be fought. This applies to both Horde and Alliance, but I definitely agree that Alliance pugs have it way way worse than Horde right now in AV. The map just isn’t the end all be all of that and you don’t need to be a victim of it
Blockquote … seriously? i regularly see groups of 15+ doing it every single game.
Ok, so counter it then. Put down a hunter frost trap in the narrow spot and have a couple mages on the tower AOEing and slowing their movement. 5 people could tie up 15 in that spot then you have a 35v25 advantage on the rest of the map.
This play style is exactly the same on both sides. The Horde get clumped and spread out and killed all the time. The map is what makes the difference. The Horde have the luxury of not losing their first node after one defeat. The Alliance have the opposite situation.
Jf we don’t need to be the victim of it like you say. Then go ahead and prove it. Tell us this winning strategy that apparently every horde knows and the Alliance don’t.
Advantage for the rest of the map TO WHERE? The Alliance can’t take back SHGY at that point. They can’t even properly defend dB and take SPGY at that point. Stop focusing on dB when the game is already over at that point.
For all that talk about how dB is so much better than fwk, it’s pretty rich to hear horde telling Alliance we need to have two separate defense forces in our base. The Horde have never needed such a thing even when Alliance where winning.
No, it really isn’t. For the last 7 weeks the overwhelming majority of Alliance were in pre mades largely ignoring the PvP objectives. We played nothing like that for 7 weeks and now our pugs have a variety of tactics we employ that can stop coordinated groups. This was never a part of Alliance culture in classic.
I dunno what to tell you other than winning AV as alliance wasn’t hard when I was alliance and you guys won most of the time when coordinated (during the ally pre made AV era).
Also Ive had plenty of games Turtle at SHGY. I agree IBGY is a better spot to defend, but it’s hardly your last stand and if your team is winning the PvP there are plenty of great spots to choke an opponent out along the way
Why don’t you actually address what I am saying for once instead of deflecting with “oh but I rmemebr Alliance used to win”. That’s irrelevant. You and I can go on and on speculating about gaming culture and balance 15 years ago and it would be pointless.
You don’t know what to tell me because if you were in our position you wouldn’t know what to do either.
You’ve seen people turtle SHGY and lose. Because SHGY is undefendable its designed for horde to take advantage of from multiple sides and offers no benefit for Alliance whatsoever.
As for choke points that you mention. Every single choke point south of SPGY faces the Alliance. Why don’t you admit that the Alliance has to be 10 more organized and better geared just to even those odds.
There certainly is an explanation. Quite a few actually. First, I want to say that your theory is incorrect. Horde did not win 99% of AV games back in vanilla.
Now onto why Horde dominate.
Reason #1: Alliance rankers refuse to play with pugs. Horde rankers are distributed into every AV increasing the skill level of the pug teams. Alliance rankers refuse to play with pugs and when they do, I see often that they don’t try.
Reason #2: Horde was hardened by months of games against premades. Horde put all their effort into trying to beat the premades and in return, collectively increased the skill level of the Horde.
Reason #3: Horde sit in a que for over an hour between games. That means when they finally get in one, they have more motivation and reason to win.
Honestly, I don’t see Blizzard doing much about this. Alliance premades exploit Warmasters to kill Drek for months and they left the exploit in the game. Horde are winning fair and square. No exploits. No zerging. Using the tools in the game as intended when AV was created. Horde change their strat to adapt to the alliance strategies.
Alliance need to step up and start trying. While it’s great to win 99% of the time, the games are a lot more fun when they are close in the end. I imagine the meta will eventually change as it does often.
I wouldn’t really say that. We def take advantage of geometry and the prospector pull is as suspect as the Pally Pull. Largely though the other factors are correct. Going against pre mades as pugs, being forced to make the most out of every queue and having all of the top rankers being solo queuers added layers of imbalance to the experience.
Yea except a majority of the time the prospector was killed before horde had an opportunity to exploit. Nonetheless, I would like to see that exploit fixed also. And lastly, on the prospector, it has been irrelevant since the AV patch as horde usually have all the bunkers destroyed by the time we’re standing in front of Vann, meaning the prospector pull is not even needed. So I would argue that most of the games are being won 100% fair and square.
With all that said, I want to go back to my previous statement that I would prefer the games to be more even. It’s a lot more exciting when both teams are attacking each other’s base 10 horde defending RH and 10 alliance defending Aid. Gets the adrenaline going. I hope Alliance step it up.
You guys just constantly miss the point. Yes the horde should win more. People who are more pvp minded tend to play horde more. The problem is this doesn’t account for the games where Alliance really do try hard and work together. The problem is that even when Alliance are far more organized they are still losing.
The horde av strategy is just a huge zerg from one node to the next. None of you have addressed a single point I’ve made about how much each area is designed in your favour. I don’t care about any prospector pull, drek pull, or back doors. I want the game to be FAIR at the start. If you’re so certain that you just win 100% of your games because you are better why are you fighting so hard on the forums to prevent the Alliance from getting a more fair start?
Not sure who you’re replying to. But “The horde AV strategy is just a huge zerg from one node to the next” is a bad argument. I don’t see anything wrong or unfair about that strategy lol… I’m not arguing against making the game fair, but I don’t exactly agree that the design of the map is in the favor of the Horde. 15 years ago it would take Horde hours to get SP and past the bridge going into the Alliance base. Now horde do it without breaking a sweat after getting SP. We made the same argument that the map was designed to give the Alliance an advantage. But it’s not designed to give anyone an advantage.
The Alliance just need to step up their game and try a different strategy than to turtle SHGY for 40 minutes and give up when they lose the battle.
Also, idk how it is on the Alliance, but Horde don’t like afkers. Many games there are people dedicated to making sure AFKers get kicked or start playing. I feel like there are many more afkers/botters on Alliance.
It’s the exact same way. The thing is, we get maybe 5 afks at the beginning and people yell at them and tell everyone to report them but it does nothing. After horde takes SHGY, 10 more people go afk because the game is already over.
So we both agree. The Horde can successfully use a pug zerg strategy and win. But the Alliance doesn’t have this option.
You can’t disagree that the map favours the horde. It does. Period.
IBGY is better than SHGY for horde. The cave is better than SPGY for Alliance. SPGY why is better for horde to assault dB than fw is for Alliance to assault fwk.
Feel free to dispute any of those points. I know you won’t. Every argument on this forum with horde goes the same way. You get a laundry list of advantages that you just ignore.
I have already made my point about the map. The bridge going into the alliance base is a massive advantage for the alliance, but as the person above you mentioned. The alliance give up by the time the horde get to that point. Alliance need to try a different strategy. Alliance have plenty of advantages but they don’t try. They do the same thing over and over again. Turtle SHGY until horde get it and then they give up. Obviously that’s not working so try something else.
The Horde meta 15 years ago was don’t get SF because it causes a turtle. Don’t get SHGY because it causes a turtle. Guess what? Horde changed their meta because the alliance zergs were winning the game in 7 minutes. Try something new, maybe you will win a game or 2.
Alliance. Can’t. Counter. SHGY.
How many times does it need to be spelled out for you? Once you contest SHGY the Alliance has to run farther to defend it than you do from IBGY. Once you claim SHGY, the Alliance has to fight through one of the best choke points in the game WHILE the horde spawn 10 yards away behind it. There is no counter once you get that far. The dB bridge does absolutely nothing for Alliance aside from delaying a guaranteed loss.
Answer the question. What are Alliance players supposed to do to counter SHGY AS A PUG with minimal ability to organize. You, as horde, will never have to face that question because you play the game on easy mode.
Go ahead and tell as that “something new”. From what I have seen from Alliance side, we have been trying new strategies all the time and none of them work. The map is just too stacked against us.