I like Jaina. She has been one of my favorite characters since WC 3. My problem with how Blizzard has written her has been stated often already in this thread.
The Alliance has Alleria, Malfurion, Tyrande, and Velen. And the Vindicaar. Jaina was always sort of powerful but in BfA… She is lifting Kul Tiran flagships, creating Arcane Broadsides than can tear down the walls of the Undercity, and making islands of Ice that can support the weight of a battle.
The Horde only has Sylvanas as a character on that level. The Alliance can tag in and out demigod level heroes while Sylvanas would have to run around alone. Thrall is on paternity leave/a guilt trip, and unavailable.
It is not about fairness or tit for tat story telling. It becomes a bloated story where one side has all the muscle and the other side ONLY HAS dirty tricks and desperation to survive. Which becomes trite when the Super Heroes on the Alliance end that Horde scheme every patch, and the only character on the Horde who can match them has to come up with another dastardly scheme to keep the Horde afloat.
It makes the story feel… somehow more illogical …
So if I have a problem with Jaina, it isnt really about her. It is about a power level imbalance that makes fighting seem a forgone conclusion when ever she appears.
Even Sylvanas, Malfurion, and Tyrande have been humbled in battle.
Because I’m giving specific citations to support my arguments. Moira and Dagran both have dual citizenship/leadership of the Bronzebeards and Dark Irons per the sources I gave. Whereas you’re blithely saying ‘reread the entire book’ to support a non-existent claim.
Lived in Dalaran. Had jobs there, possibly owned property. Had bank accounts. Referred to it as ‘our city’. Worked as part of the ruling council. Were said to fight under their banners and not under Quel’thalas. Are literally referred to as citizens in the quests.
“Sunreaver Citizen says: Can the Kirin Tor really kick us out like this?”
“Sunreaver Citizen says: Leave Dalaran? Where will I even go…”
Not very ambiguous.
No actually i just replaced what you said with the opposing faction, so it no longer fits your bias and now you backtrack. You typed the words, not me. Next be clearer in what you say before you say it. You see, in a court of law, you are responsible for your words or they can be used against you. Same in the court of public opinion.
And actually they are comparable, both were attacks on unprovoked main cities with civilians living there. One is not considered genocidal because it furthers your bias and cause. Simple logic here.
No, there is a specific reason why I don’t like discussing things with you. You argue even when you agree. You adhere to the lore only when it suits you, and brush it under the rug when it doesn’t, while also maintaining a smug demeanor and claiming your opinions are formulated with evidence, even when the opposite is true. You lie about your personal life and experience, and you are overall unpleasant. I am done talking to you.
No… Because it doesn’t work with that swap. The Alliance and Horde were not at war when The Horde attacked. The Horde commit Genocide, when the Alliance did no such thing in Dazar’alor. It’s not comparable, so you are wrong both times.
The attack on Dazar’alor was provoked because they supplied the Horde in their War effort. The attack on Night Elf lands happened during peace time. Dazar’alor is not genocide, because the Alliacne did not kill civilians in mass. The most telling thing here is that Dazar’alor still stands, when Teldrassil and everyone inside it does not.
Side note… is it a bad thing that when Saurfang inevitably brings Thrall back from beyond the dark portal that I’m going to feel happy, and not exasperated?
Yes I do. She went from a likable character, to just another boring Alliance racism monster.
Her main reasons for hating the Horde are:
A. Theramore, who, the guy that did that is long gone at this point.
B. Killing her father. Which SHE HELPED US DO! Because it was the RIGHT thing to do!
And now she’s just become her father.
So your goal is to just become the thing most players, Horde included, hate about the Horde?
It actually works better with the swap, seeing as the Zandalari are NOT part of the horde but mere allies. The Night Elves are part of the Alliance, so yes both attacks are unprovoked. Its like the Alliance are Germany and the Horde are Americans, where Americans attacked Munich unprovoked, and in response the Germans attacked the Brittish unprovoked who are allies with the Americans but not Americans or part of an American v German war.
Alliance attacked an ally that was not part of the war and was in peace time. According to the story, you know the one that is cannon and blizzard has put in quests and achievements for, designed to get the Zandarari to join the war and Horde. It took the Alliance to attack them for that end to come to fruition. Evidenced further by Zandalari not available for Horde until after the raid. (Blizzard bureaucracy aside, this is the lore reason Blizzard has provided as well)
See what i did there. I used comparative analysis and evidence to back up my arguments. Which is far more than “read it again” that you have repeatedly claimed.
But I have given you points of evidence - quotes and page numbers. I only mentioned evidence in the first place because you mischaracterized my stance as assuming and ‘that’s dumb.’ Your responses have been “… That literally says nothing…” and insist I reread an entire book to support your claim. I would gladly reread a chapter if you could give me even that much, I have the book. Even tried searching an online copy for possible cues.
Again, such as when? Beyond not literally rereading Tides of War on the spot right now (which I thought was clearly a joke), nothing remotely comes to mind.
To each there own. I try to meet people halfway when they treat me in kind. Hence why I was talking to Zaltaan originally.
“We chose not to include the Vindicaar because it didn’t fit with the story we wanted to tell.”
“Hey guys, wouldn’t it be cool to give Jaina a magic flying ship with arcane cannons?”
Yeah, I don’t know either. It’s another massive flaw in Blizzard’s writing; I call it the “Oooooh, Shiny!” mistake. They would rather ignore or retcon an existing piece of lore, just so they can introduce something new and shiny (which, like a toddler, they will play with for five minutes and then abandon).
Defeated in the face of empirical data and comparative analysis. Also, just to let you know personal attacks on someone in a debate is an Ad Hominem logical fallacy and only serves to weaken your position. What actually strengthens your position are facts, in which you have not implored to support your premises, although asked for repeatedly.
This is the sort of thing I mean. If you want to accuse me of something, we can go over it. But instead ‘reread Tides of War’ and ‘Today’.
I never claimed I had served in the military. I vaguely remember that thread even, but I wasn’t the one you were talking to about it. It looks like that was Jacksprat. Which would be fair, we’re both male undead posting in that thread.
When they treat me in kind. I never feel like you do. Mostly because you seem preoccupied winning an argument or being condescending in the first place. So it takes fifty questions with one word answers to get anywhere.
Actively helping the Horde’s war effort, even sending soldiers to Kul Tiras, and using their navy to raid uncharted islands for Azerite. They are no longer neutral in the conflict. They don’t need to be part of the Horde to choose sides, and aiding the Horde in a War and attacking Alliance settlements is a declaration of war.
The Attack on the Night Elves is unprovoked. The attack on Dazar’alor is provoked, as I explained above.
Flase, Zandalari have troops in Stormsong.
The Zandalari have joined the War, just not the Horde.
This just established Talanjia s the racial leader, who has been wanting to join the Horde for some time. But the Zandalari have already been attacking Alliance settlements and supplying the Horde with ships.
You were wrong. Nice try.
Im sorry, that is my mistake. Still, I find your argument disingenuous and I rather not continue.
She’s also indicative of the way the writers can’t decide whether the current Horde is or is not to be considered accountable for the things that happened while Garrosh was warchief. They seem to have settled for trying to tell the Horde they’re not responsible and tell the Alliance the current Horde is responsible, and that’s leading to problems.