Nope. In fact, she put the city on lockdown to prevent any Sunreavers from getting away. They weren’t kicked out. They were forcefully imprisoned and/or killed.
The only ones who escaped either slipped away or broke out with the Horde PC during the scenario. Everyone else stayed locked up in the Violet Hold, at least those that weren’t fed to sharks.
But when Horde kills actual soldier combatants or god forbid attacks someone from behind during war, they’re honorless savage abominations.
Prisoners are a good way to get what you want in war. I mean, was it lawful good? Not at all. But was it a shrewd move if your side is actually willing to use hostages? Heck yes it is.
And lets not claim horde moral high ground here. Remember, if your side hadn’t bombed a city into oblivion in an attempt to assassinate most of the alliance leadership, jaina isn’t turned into just another murder hobo.
When they are not your citizens, they are the enemy.
That’s what happens when you deliver a weapon of mass destruction to a mad man.
< looking beyond the scene of malfurion struggling to his feet, to the burning tree on the horizon behind him >
yeeeah, that’s not what the alliance was mad about
Cool, then we agree.
I never claimed as much. Either that the Horde had a moral high ground or that it was a bad tactic. Just that morally speaking, it seems like a bad thing to justify killing or imprisoning people on basically no evidence.
Seemed like they were their citizens.
They didn’t.
Yet it’s constantly one complaint made against Saurfang, is it not? “He engaged someone from behind!”
Debatable, considering they are Blood Elves, and Dalaran was a ruin when the Sin’dorei were established as a sub-faction of High Elves.
They did.
No. One spy. She was completely lovey-dovey before then and she took out her anger on civilians who had nothing to do with it.
Maybe people who are Bipolar do. Nobody flip-flops that often for such little reason.
Really? That’s what you’re going with? How did she port Varian out of Undercity after the Wrathgate then?
Taking out her rage on unkillable Legion fodder rather than helping defend Alliance strongholds or partaking in major offensives where a powerful mage could have been useful? She completely abandoned them.
If she could do half the things she’s done in BfA back in Legion the war would have been over pretty quickly. Her power spiked up out of nowhere.
The Horde invaded their own territory? What? The game shows Theramoore troops attacking Durotar and the Barrens back in Cataclysm. Garrosh sacked North Watch and nuked Theramoore in response. And, unlike Jaina, he did it without civilian casualties (Since his plan allowed Theramoore to be evacuated first).
Exactly. But she still led the Alliance forward into the city despite their main purpose being fulfilled.
She’s one of the most poorly written, inconsistant characters going. Not going to argue that the Horde is filled with poorly written characters, because I agree, but she’s easily one of the worst.
I mean that’s Saurfang’s complaine against Saurfang. I don’t think many of us cared, considering the burning corpses of the night elven children in the tree i mentioned.
That’s the complaint Saurfang made to himself. If I’m fighting an enemy in war… I’m going to take every advantage I can and that includes sniping from cover. I’m not going to just throw away the sacrifice made by every soldier under my command because it might be an isue for my “personal honor”. That’s the difference between being a samurai character written for entertainment and a real honest to goodness general. The latter takes his victory however it becomes available. Courtesies due to honor are all well and good. AFTER THE WAR IS WON.
And yet Aethas was a member of the Council of Six. The Sunreavers seemed to live in Dalaran. They owned property there, at least working jobs as shopkeppers, seeming to live there. Had bank accounts there. So I would view them as citizens. Obviously it would depend on the specific person. Clearly Aethas himself was.
No, one person did and one person looked the other way. They, the Sunreavers, almost to a man, weren’t involved.
I mean it was a sunreaver operative and the horde PC. So evidence or not, she was right.
Also, it may show, but i skipped like… the entirety of pandaria and cataclysm. Cataclysm because i got my first big boy job, and pandaria because i thought pandas being in the game was one of the dumbest things i’d ever heard. Point being, I missed a lot of the lore, and if i’d experienced it, maybe i’d feel different. who knows.
Sunreavers designed and built the Mana bomb, and handed it over to Garrosh who used it on her city. Baine warned her of the attack, but not of the bomb, which looked like a deception on his part. So the actions of the Horde as a whole.
…… Oh man, I wish this were true.
Humans are barely consistent with bowel movements, let alone moral standings.
As I said, Blizzard has not properly defined how magic works. They need too.
You mean… Everything we were doing leading up to the Argus patch?
…. How? What has she even done that’s so over the top? A flying boat? A bigger than average frost nova?.. She hasn’t done anything that Khadgar hasn’t done.
Well, she likely sought to occupy Dazar’alor to seize their infrastructure and prevent the rebuilding of the Zandalari fleet. But the Horde pushed them out of the City.
How?
You don’t need to be a Citizen to be on the Council of Six. Case in point, Kalec is a bloody Dragon.
I can go to Switzerland and do all of these things without citizenship.
Doesn’t mean they were.
One man designed and built the mana bomb? Please…
The purge wasn’t in response to any of that. Also the Sunreavers didn’t build the mana bomb. There’s no proof of that.
They’ve defined it more than well enough for there to be plot holes.
Yeah. Like I said, she could have been doing something to help with that instead of taking her rage out on irrelevant fodder.
Flying boat, somehow managing to cleanse the forsaken plague which is the main reason Gilneas is uninhabitable right now. Portaling Anduin and crew to safety at the last minute etc…
That was obviously impossible. I don’t recall reading anything about them planning to occupy the city. Just to force Rastakhan to surrender (As if he’s surrender after they butchered their way through his city where, as usual, civilians were caught in the crossfire).
For all the reasons previously stated. Her inconsistant flip-flopping on a daily basis being the most egrigious.
Yes it was.
Yes they did.
The lack of definition is what makes the plot holes. That isn’t something wrong with Jaina, that’s something wrong with Blizzard and their world building.
Killing “ireelevant” fodder like we were doing? That’s your perspective. You don’t know how many lives she saved because of her actions, so you can’t call it irrelevant.
She froze it for a finite period of time. It was not a cleansing.
Which is something she has been doing since WC3. Not beyond the realm of possibility, and it doesn’t make her OP.
What did you expect? “Alliance loses 4 main leaders in Lordaeron’s Throne room.” ?
Why?
Sounds like a personal problem.
Lawl, don’t be dramatic. Y’all commit Genocide to start all this. What we did is not even close.
But those reasons are wrong…
Like a real person.
No it wasn’t.
Proof?
So Jaina can teleport in one situation but can’t in a situation that’s pretty much similar? I don’t think that needs defining.
Well she wasn’t protecting any towns, because nobody saw her while she was gone. We killed demons permenantly, unlike her, and we actually advanced the war effort.
She didn’t freeze it, she froze the Horde soldiers and equipment. It was gone completely until Sylvanas threw more of it out onto the field.
No, I expected something that didn’t involve the Alliance being completely doomed without her last minute arrival.
Because they had to lure the Horde away just to get in range of the city. Obviously the Horde were going to come back.
Sounds like your headcanon.
And the Zandalari civilians who weren’t even part of the Horde at that time had what to do with the burning of the tree-trolls?
No, they’re right ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Not really.
Cenarius is literally her son.
I’m not a fan of the right conclusion if it was reached in the incorrect manner. Coincidentally being right isn’t sufficient. But further, as you note, it was a single agent with no evidence of some deeper conspiracy. She would only be right if her actions stopped at those actually responsible.
Fair enough. Mists of Pandaria was my favorite expansion. And for the record, I like Jaina as a character, generally. I’m not out to demonize her. I just disagree with the moral rationalizations for the purge people present. To me, the ends do not justify the means. And that’s fine, not every character needs to be 100% good.
Being a dragon isn’t proof he’s not a citizen. And the way Aethas and others talk about him in Shadow of the Sun make it clear he’s a citizen.
Good for you.
Sufficient evidence for me to see the truth.
One person can do a lot of things in Warcraft.
Yes it was.
Read Tides of War.
…. That sort of thing most defiantly needs defining. Unless you just want things to complain about… Which seems to be the case.
Lol… No, it was a temporary fix. Sylvanas’ plague bombs went off inside the city, and yet we see plague going all the way to Brill in-game now.
Who cares?
Who would then have to assault Dazar’alor, fortified by the Alliance…
My head canon that you can’t read? Maybe.
They happened to live under a Government that supported the Horde’s War effort. We didn’t commit genocide on the Zandalar people tho.
… How?
Yeah, really. People are not consistent. You should get out more.
Yeah… and yet, he is more druidic in his power. One thing does not change the other.
Yeah, kinda does.
Nah.
Thanks.
Assume all people are citizens until proven otherwise? That’s dumb.
Well, you’re wrong, so it doesn’t matter.