No one hated Jaina

Lore Story Forum
853

I love the Night Elves but they were never really smart.
I would have chosen Nighthaven myself.

But there is a meta reason, there was not enough space in Kalimdor mainland for another capital city. Not one so close to Orgrimmar.

Andiun is making a statement of fact about lore.
I posted some quest dialogues earlier to Treng that describe the Horde slaughtering their way through Aastranar not leaving even the civilians alive. Delaryn only hopes that some were able to escape.

Am I supposed to think this never happened because I didn’t like it?

Could you be more specific?
My biggest problem with the current “resolution” was that the Horde wasn’t punished, they didn’t hand over their prisoners and did not apologize… though apparently Thrall, the one person that can claim lack of culpability made an apology in a book.

I am not disputing a fact that I don’t like and pretend didn’t happen.
The Horde claims if they don’t have a warchief they won’t go on a killing spree again… thats a promise. Thats not a fact laid by the story.

If a narrator shows up and says “And the Horde never went on a killing rampage again until the heat death of the comos.”
It would be dumb but it would be factual.

Welcome to the Alliance.
We have tabards.

Then the Night Elves are doomed to extinction at the hands of the Horde who can’t stop themselves from killing the night elves.
If they couldn’t stop the Horde at their strongest point there is no reason to believe they can stop the Horde at their weakest.

Unless there is some magical reverse UNO card in play to tip fate in their favor.
Lets see what happens though.

854

He is the leader of the Alliance.
He knows the strength and weaknesses of his subjects.
We have an NPC giving us a factual statement.

Give me a factual statement from another NPC or piece of lore that is more authoritative than the High King of the alliance in the wake of Teldrassil genocide.

Btw I also back up my claims about how Darkshore and Ashenvale were both depopulated by evacuation and slaughter. I noticed you didn’t push this point any longer. I assume I convinced you?

Evidence suggest it is you who lies.
I am the only person in the past hundred posts in this thread to actually source the lore and back up what I am saying.

If you make a claim Treng. Source it.

855

You’ve lied about your source, stating his subjectively wrong opinion, which we the players know is wrong, is objective fact.

Also you lied in stating you’re the only person who has sourced your argument.

856

The Highking of the Alliance has made a factual statement about an Alliance race.

Provide an NPC with more authority or lore event/revelation that counters this faction statement after WoT.
Your headcanon theories are not the authoritative knowledge you think they are.
You asked for a direct quote that the NEs were endangered and I provided it.

Provide your source that directly counters it.
Thanks.

857

He made a subjective statement about something he doesn’t know about after Danuser made a pointed statement that everything is subjective except for what the player characters themselves witness, liar.

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858

Back when I was pointing out that the night elf souls were rescued from the Maw, the nelves got a new seed to plant a new tree, and that Tyrande and Malfurion seemed resolute about getting it planted. You dismissed it all as things that nelf and Alliance fans didn’t want and none of it should have happened.

Mainly, as you just pointed out, because it didn’t contain enough violent retribution agains the Horde.

But then you turn around and cling very heavily to a blurb from a novella because it paints a more supportive picture for your anti-Horde viewpoints, even though there are facts ingame which conflict with it. We’re all suppose to “Accept It, it’s what the lore says!”

Basically you’re embracing the parts that support your anti-Horde viewpoints and claiming everyone should just accept it for what it is, but the parts that don’t support those viewpoints are suddenly being dismissed “No we don’t want it”.

Is the lore all bad and should be dismissed or should we accept it for what it is?

Also this:

It’s a step in the right direction. It’s a resolution to one of the Horde’s major underlying problems, which was an evil warchief in power gets to start a war whenever they want and the Horde’s honorbound oaths of obediance compells them into obedience.

Ok, so how do we fix that? Easy, we abolish the position of warchief and create a system where if one dimwit says they want WAR there’s a number of peace wankers there and ready to shut them down.

Which is exactly what they did, indicating Blizzard is planning to not be so villain batty of the Horde going forward.

Yet you dismiss that completely as well, convinced someday the Horde will set out again in a rampage to try and eat nelf babies.

Yeah. :neutral_face:

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859

The Highking of the Alliance is making a factual statement.

First you tried to argue he was making poetry. When you realized that didn’t work you tried discredit him with his gender and race while ignoring his position.

You ignore his title and the information at his disposal.
You also ignore the meta fact that Andiun is the golden boy of Golden, what he says is fact. Even when he is wrong it is because he is too sweet or wasn’t extra good enough.

Golden wanted the trajedy to really land.
We had parralel of the Scourge when they wiped out 90% of the high elves.
We had the various quests I linked about the merciless slaughter the Horde was engaged in Ashenvale and Darkshore.
And we have the golden boy himself confirming what we are being led to believe.

A big, big chunk of the entire NE population has been burned alive by the Horde.
There are now too few NEs left in the world.

Just because you don’t like hearing something it doesn’t make it a lie.

If you lie to prove me wrong. And I would LOVE to be wrong because then the NEs are in a stronger position and don’t need to move out of Kalimdor.
Please provide me with new lore that states that Night Elves are not endangered or are now almost or fully recovered from WoT.

Thanks.

860

No, he isn’t, liar.
We’ve been all over the world and seen the very many lands that the very many night elves own and maintain.

We also see that in Exploring Kalimdor that the very many night elves are repelling the entire Horde from threeish zones. Ashenvale (save STP/Lumbermill), Azshara, and parts of the Barrens.

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861

Unless those spirits are resurrected as NEs or as some sort of ghostly guardian for the current living NEs that doesn’t fix the existential threat the remaining Night Elves face.
Making sure the dead have a good afterlife is just the bonus, not the main purpose… we didn’t even know they were in the maw suffering.

I was actually saying during BFA nobody was clamoring to save the Night Elf souls. We just wanted our revenge.

That blurb, multiple questlines and current storylines paints a grim picture for the Night Elves.
You said what is the current problem facing the Night Elves and I told you.
Existential threat from the Horde.
This threat is still very much in effect.
The existence of the Night Elves cannot depend on how the Horde behaves. They should be either have enough power to stop the Horde in Kalimdor or go somewhere that the Horde can’t get to them.

Punishing the Horde, apologies and prisoner exchanges are just DLCs for a better and more civil Horde - Night Elf future relationships.

What sources do not support my point of view? So far I am literally the only person actually providing sources.

We accept what is given to us as fact and we criticize what is offered to us as solutions or promises because they haven’t come to pass yet not their effects fully realized.
Are the Night Elves going to build a house of straws when the Big Bad Horde comes knocking or will they build a house of bricks?

There is no guarantee that the Horde will forever be peaceful or someone wont usurp the others and continue in Garrosh or Sylvanas’ footsteps. If we know anything for sure is that there are Sylvanas sympathizers still within the Horde.

Also this puts the Night Elf continued survival in Kalimdor completely in Horde’s hands.
If the Horde can be good for a few generations the Night Elves can live in peace and maybe recover.
But if the Horde goes evil again, the Night Elves will be helpless to stop them just as they were unable to stop them in WoT.

862

He is making a statement.
You saying no doesn’t make it not real, you can’t wish it away.

Please provide the source that speaks directly against what multiple quests, cinematic parallels and NPCs statements. I am waiting Treng. Please provide the source.

Exploring Kalimdor is set in when Tyrande had her Night Warrior powers and the Horde is not committed to a full invasion but they are still trying to enter Night Elf lands.
These are border skrimishes at best, unless these are full on invasions.

Is the Horde actively invading in EoK? Or are they being invaded? My guess is neither.

863

Which he is subjectively wrong about, liar.
I’ve already proved you objectively wrong.
You lied and multiple times saying druids aren’t night elves, and night elves don’t care about ashenvale, and wardens don’t count as night elves.

You do utterly nothing but lie because you’re so desperate to maintain your night elf victim card.

Utterly pathetic.
:dracthyr_lulmao:

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864

Provide the evidence then.
At least I got you to admit that he wasn’t making poetry.

I have quests.
Cinematics.
and direct quotes from prominent Alliance characters backing up my claim.

Please provide your source.

I have argued those locations don’t constitute MAJOR centers of population as they are schools, camps, prisons and to be fair some are villages.

Ashenvale and Darkshore got depopulated by murder and evacuation. I provided the quest dialogues to back this up.

Not that they aren’t “Real” Night Elves. Thats just your pathetic strawman argument.
You are just in denial about how badly Blizzard has villain batted the Horde.
Instead of being mad at me for quoting the story to you be mad at Blizzard for victimizing the Night Elves so hard and villain batting the Horde so badly.
This isn’t my fault. I didn’t do this.
I am literally quoting the story.

Trust me it pisses me off too.

Your hatred of a fictional people truly is.

I may disagree with Darkore but at least he is arguing in good faith.

865

I have.
Multiple times.

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866

These are your own speculations.

Provide actual direct quotes from NPCs or events that will supersede Andiun’s direct statements in the wake of WoT.

I provided a direct quote.
You must provide a direct quote.

867

And here I was thinking that’s exactly what they were going for.
But…who knows? Maybe it will just be a tree for them to live in.

Indeed, but when the mission changed to “Rescue the Night Elves From the Maw” you all got uber-pissed. “Why are we not Punching Horde Anymore!?! Blizzard hates us.”

It’s ridiculous. They have a chance to give peace to nelf souls AND have a new place for remaining nelves to live, but let’s throw a fit because we wanted to punch Horde instead.
:roll_eyes:

It really isn’t though, at least in the current sense. You seem to be in denial that the Horde is changing for the better.

It’s like you really don’t want the Horde to change for the better and become a more peaceful faction, and are more comfortable with them being “evil warmongers”, just so you can be proven right.

Dude… I’ve literally been pointing out things that have happened in the frickin’ game itself that supports the idea that the nelves are not as bad off as you’re trying to claim.
They can rise armies big enough to defeat the Horde and shove them out of Darkshore and Ashenvale. Clearly, they are not helpless.

Yet you’re continuously claiming they are, that they’re completely at the mercy of the Horde, and they should abandon Kalimdor so they can survive.

Which is it?

There’s lots of various anti-Alliance voices still in the Horde. They’re currently getting outvoted by the peace-mongers.
That’ll last as long as it’ll last, and how long that will be is unknown.

Here’s a hot take though. Before the Horde ever goes evil again, we’ll at least get a grand view of the Primal Incarnates master plan. They’re currently a bigger danger to the nelves than the Horde is.

After that, we might see a full on Void invasion of Azeroth. If nelves can’t defend themselves agaisnt the Horde as you claim, how’re they going to handle that.

Another possibility. The Naaru might actually launch their Light Binding crusade on Azeroth. I kind of doubt they’ll allow the nelves to continue with their Nature and Elune worship. It doesn’t seem to fit with The Light. Are the nelves just going to roll over and show their belly because they’re too weak to stop it or are they going to stand up for the freedoms?

As long as the Alliance maintains their one ruler blue-warchief High King setup, a dictator will someday come to power. Might take several generations to get there, but it might happen.
Might even happen before Horde goes back to having a Warchief. >.> <.<
What are the night elves going to do if they are suddenly faced with a Garithos type human-supremist calling the shots in the Alliance?

tl/dr: Azeroth is a dangerous place and there are lots of things that can swoop in and gooble the night elves up at a moment’s notice. Nelves better not be as helpless as you seem to think they are, otherwise they’re completely boned.

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868

if the Night Elves obtain new protectors then they can remain in Kalimdor imo.

Yes because the Horde punched first. They need to be punched back, saving the souls doesn’t help when the next punch comes nor is it going to deter the Horde from throwing the next punch.

I know you understand this.

Whether the Horde changes for the better or not is irrelevant.
Do they have the capacity to repeat what they did before?

Absolutely.

Can it happen again?

Absolutely.

Do the Night Elves have anything to stop a Horde that comes to punch them again and maybe burn Hyjal or Moonglade?
Currently? No. They do not.
And that is the problem.

The Horde that the Night Elves pushed out was not their full force. The full force of the Horde was enganged in a war with the rest of the Alliance.
Also at the time the Night Elves had the Night Warrior and Army of the Blackmoon.
Neither remains as of right now as far as I know.

If the Night Elves are so all powerful and invulnerable then WoT would have never happened.
The fantasy that Night Elves are capable of defending themselves against the Horde has been completely shattered. Pushing back the Horde that is semi distracted with temporary buffs is not an encouraging prospect for the long term future.

If the full force of the void or primals focus fires on a Night Elf teldrassil 2.0 holding then current lore would suggest that the night elves are very screwed.
Or the Horde is extremely skilled at exploiting Night Elf weaknesses and destroying them.

Same answer as above until there is new lore that would make their strength not circumstantial.

They are indeed boned to the core.
The Horde got their W for BFA and achieved their goals, the only place the Night Elves will be safe is on Dragon Isles where there are FIVE dragon flights ready to answer the call to defend their territory which would include the new NE city.

If the Night Elves stay on Kalimdor they would need a MAJOR upgrade to their defenses that are not only permanent but also reliable.

We will most likely be spending a big chunk of this expansion farming for loot and defending this new Night Elf home from Primals, emerald nightmare or the void and in the finale establish it as a full safe place for the NEs to settle in with the dragonflights blessing the tree and swearing to protecting just as Ysera would have.

Thats my prediction.

869

They can remain in Kalimdor irregardless of your opinion.

They punched back in the Darkshore Warfront. And won.
The only thing you guys got shorted on was a cool cinematic showing the Horde forces getting expelled from Darkshore.
Any further dissatisfaction from that is your own problem.

Did you forget the bulk of the night elf forces were marching south to Silithus to fight in that battle over Azurite? A fact which Sylvanas took advantage of when she launched the War of Thorns. By the time they got back the tree was already burning.

The night elves got hoodwinked. Maybe they’ll learn their lesson?

Dune Reference Inc:
The Sardaukar, the fanatic warriors loyal to the Emperor, were supposedly the “Biggest and Baddest Dudes in the Universe”. They were outmatched when fighting Fremen in the desert, yet they still managed to destroy some of the Fremen Sietches (towns/settlements). When they actually threw down in the final battle though, the Sardaukar got rolled.

The relationship between nelves and Horde is largely similar.

Except the Horde lost the 4th war, and whatever they took they had to give back.

So basically what you want to happen is for night elves to become vassals of the dragons because the world’s too dangerous.
Pathetic.

You heard it here, night elf players! Smallioz thinks you’re all too weak to defend yourselves from the Horde or anything else. Best go hide under Mommy Ysera’s skirts for the rest of time.

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870

Night Elf Victim Cards Holders, whinging: We never get only wins. Our wins come at cost.
The Horde nearly being defeated by night elf peasants during the war of thorns, then being completely wholly objectively defeated in the Fourth War:

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871

Its not my opinion thats the problem. Its the existential threat of the Horde hanging over their heads like the Sword of Damocles.
Without new protectors they would be victims of the Horde once again.

As I said.
Night Warrior.

And they can be hoodwinked again.
Thats no certainty of survival.

They got to kill plenty of Night Elves.
And they can do it again.

I prefer vassals of dragons over humans but now they are getting both. False pride is beneath me, whats important is that the lore does adequate world building to ensure the Horde cannot threaten the Night Elves again even if they wanted to.

Moving to the dragon isles away from the warmongering Horde accomplishes this necessity.

Did you find the direct quote or not?
You seem pretty adamant about it.

872

As Night Elf fan I fully recognize that the Horde bested them.
Ashenvale was cleaned out by the Horde Sentinels and Civilians both.
Darkshore was evacuated but who knows how many survived it.

Right now Horde promises to be “Good” but there is no guarentee and the future of the Night Elves can’t be depending on what the Horde decides to do but rather what the Night Elves decide to do.

If they remain in Kalimdor their power fantasy of guarding their own forests against thee next Horde invasion is completely destroyed.
If the Horde can burn Teldrassil they can burn any other place anytime they want. Thats canon. Thats a fact.

And the Night Elves are less populous than they were before.
They are weaker than they were before.
They do not have the Night Warrior, Army of the Darkmoon and as shown in WoT not a single wild god helped them to stop the Horde.
That is the lore.

What stops the next Horde attack? Absolutely nothing.
If Blizzard wants to fix the Night Elves instead of Night Elf souls going into Night Elf heaven we need something that actually guarantees that the Night Elves are safe and have chance to recover from Horde’s relentless aggression.

Dragon Isles will address all the points I raised and I understand why certain Horde players who hate the night elves and love their perpetual vulnerable punching bag hate to change things up.
But come on, you had your fun. Go punch some Quilboars.