It’s not.
Its less of a false assertion and more of an exaggeration. I don’t recall Jaina ever getting the level of hate she gets now.
Because I just have a different view of the Horde… I think the Horde’s story is one of failure. I think it makes sense when you look at Thrall laying a very bad foundation for the Horde, glorifying War Criminals, and choosing a successor based on racism.
Your views are your own and I can’t say they’re right or wrong, but that’s not really what I’m talking about. I specifically mean this part.
The first and second half of this quote are just two halves of the same complaint. It’s the unliked direction of the horde that did this to Jaina, and she becomes a repetitive symbol of everything people have hated about the faction narrative so far. And your post basically blows it off with the implied “WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN THE BAD GUYS”, which has been a semi-common sentiment that ignores the complaint itself - the person making the complaint didn’t want Blizzard writing them as blatant bad guys in the first place. It’s extremely effective at frustrating the Honor Horde types who debate in these threads.
They aren’t any more evil than the European colonists who settled the land now known as the United States of America.
I don’t know how you see war, but my belief is fight a war to win. And one of the ways you win is that if the enemy has a vulnerable supply chokepoint, you stomp the everliving crap out of it. And if you have the intelligence to do so when the leadership of your enemies is having a confab, that’s BONUS!
Okay, but there are people who didn’t want George RR Martin to write the Red Wedding either. Story telling shouldn’t be a jerk off of fan appeasement. It’s the story Blizzard wants to tell. I am not saying the story doesn’t have it’s flaws, and I am not saying it is the story I would have told personally
(Side note, I run a WoW D&D campaign, and despite my dislike for the Horde, the Horde is basically the World power, and the Alliance is suffering from a lot of in-fighting. Not because of my bias, but because I felt it made sense for a 8-years after Legion scenario. So, while I am aware of my biases, I think people assume I am more bias than I actually am. )
I just think it’s such a petty argument to argue “This isn’t the story I wanted” -I- didn’t want The War of Thorns either, but I accept it as the story that is being told.
The only real complaints I understand are those who feel like the cultural and racial identity of their race and faction is being misrepresented. Which I sympathize with as that has been something Night Elves have been dealing with for years. With that being said, I don’t think that is happening Horde side in BfA. At least not currently.
I do think having Tauren Druids and Horde Shaman actively aid in Teldrassil’s burning does do that, but when I said as much back when it was current content, Horde players Avidly disagreed with me, and defended the actions of Druids and SHaman torching the tree. So for me, it’s an unwinnable situation, and I can see how the same is true for Blizzard. Nothing they do will make the Horde happy. Because the Horde player base is split on what they actually want.
you just basically justified every act that the alliance has ever committed, thank you.
garithos did nothing wrong, i guess.
I mean, racism is clearly wrong, but I still fail to see what Garithos actually did. The most damning thing is putting Kael’thas in an unwinnable scenario… That’s really f’ed up. But beyond that… Garithos’ crimes are very minor.
dude… he put kaelthas into a lose-lose situation, he wanted to kill them all and send them into a suicide mission.
then imprison him and intending to murder them all without a trial.
As I mentioned, is clearly evil.
But, Kael did join up with the Naga, who are pretty evil folk. I am not saying I like Garithos, I am not saying Garithos was a good guy by any means. But People literally bring him up as the worst representation the Alliance has. And if that’s our worst… Idk man, that’s not bad in the grand scheme of things.
and that saved them from assured defeat…
he had no choice.
I agree.
I liked Kael, I was upset he was a Raid boss instead of a Racial leader.
My point is… If Garithos is literally the worst representation of the Alliance, then the bar is set pretty low for Alliance evil doers.
We know that now but was that knowledge avaliable to either Kael or Garithos? The naga only just started coming to the surface world that year, after all. How much knowledge did anyone even have on them?
That’s certainly a way to start a post.
(I just snipped this bit out because I don’t have an issue with the rest of the post)
I disagree about it being it being petty to be upset about not having the story you want, though. I don’t read RR Martin’s books so I don’t know how bad the Red Wedding was, but the difference between a story turn in a book versus this game is that the reader doesn’t have a main character like they would here. They may have favorite or preferred characters, but none of them are “theirs” in the way that Sarm the level 120 troll mage is for me. And Blizzard dictated that, for my game experience, Sarm the mage has assisted in genocide and committed other war crimes with no real way to opt out other than to stop questing, and freeze WoW’s world in time forever.
The DnD campaign might be a good analogy to this, since you brought it up. It’s like if you strongarmed your fellow players into butchering an orphanage, regardless of their alignments, by telling them that you outright refuse to advance the story in any way until they do it. And then you spent the next several sessions reminding them of how horrible their characters are with a token NPC that only appears to get upset and enraged upon seeing them.
And whenever someone gets annoyed that the character shows up, the pizza guy opens the door and goes “well if you don’t like the story why are you playing the bad guys? ![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
”
LOL…“oh no, the orcs are beter fighters than us! I know, let’s call on a demi-god! Oh no! They killed our demi-god! How dare they use an outside power to survive our murderous ambush!”
The irony is almost as strong as the neutering night elves got prior to WoW to attract more sensitive elf fans.
You don’t get to open your OP with “I am not sympathetic with those who are upset with the Horde story,” proceed to repeatedly condescend to every. single. poster. who has explained, in excruciating detail, why they are upset with the story, and then act surprised that everyone here thinks you’re biased. You know what? You’re right, I bet you’re not this aggressively obnoxious in real life. Most people who are jerks online aren’t. I DO think you use the Story forum as a way to blow off steam by repeatedly picking fights with and antagonizing Horde posters, and I don’t think that’s cool, or nice.
You are very deliberately ignoring the dozens and dozens of SPECIFICALLY Tauren druids and shaman who posted how upset and sick they were about the War of Thorns story, and you know you are. Don’t ask me for links, because of course I didn’t bookmark threads I read on the WoW forums. Go scroll back through the archived threads from July and August if for some reason you want to pretend not to believe me - but any denial you might make is disingenuous, and you and everyone here knows it, because the forum was lousy with them for a month or two after the WoT. The reason you never see those specific posters anymore is because I imagine most of them unsubbed, as they announced they were doing at the time, and no longer play the game.
Anyway, unless you actually show SOME kind of good faith effort to walk back this constant baiting, this is the last post I’ll make in one of your threads - I like discussion as much as the next person, but you are very clearly not interested in an actual good faith interchange with Horde posters. You don’t care about what we think, mock how we feel, and openly say so frequently, and it beggars belief that you can act surprised when a plurality of people call you out for it. If you ever genuinely want to have a good faith exchange about WoW lore that involves you actually putting down your bias for two seconds, picking up a gram of empathy, and listening to what anyone else has to say, I’ll be happy to chat, but until then, Elune be with you, or whatever.
See, I don’t look at it that way. The way I see it, it would be like having the faction my players represent butcher an orphanage… My players would have re respond to that accordingly. Your charater is your own, and you don’t have to have your charater aid in the genocide, or agree with the actions of your faction. There is also no shame in admitting that the Alliance has the Moral High ground here. Saurfang has, and Thrall had Jaina’s help fighting Grom in Warcraft 3. Jaina turned against her own father because she didn’t agree with his actions… There is no excuse for the Horde,a nd you are not being forced into anything. You get to choose sides ffs.
Which is true. I know you don’t like to hear it, but that’s the truth of it.
Not sure… the random human Knight knew what they were… Garithos seems to think that alliance was damning… so idk
Oh, they knew of the Naga (possibly from Kael or Morgoth, who both fought the naga prior), but I’m questioning how much they knew, and whether we could make the claim that they knew they were evil.
I recall Garithos calling them “inhuman” as a justification, but it’s been years since I played.
I am not trying to antagonize anyone, you all just find my opinions antagonizing. Whether or not you are antagonized is entirely up to you. I am not responsible for that.
I didn’t see them back when it was current content. When I expressed my own feelings on the matter, I was attacked the same way you all attack me still… back then I agreed with you all. Now I don’t because I realized nothing can make you all happy.
Just because you feel baited doesn’t mean I was baiting.
I forget where the inhuman quote came from. Like I said, I am not defending Garithos… I just think his crimes are pretty minimal, especially compared to the Horde.
Edit: When I say minimal, I mean in compassion to most other villains that exist. The entire point is that, if Garithos is the worst of the Alliance, then the bar is set low as far as evil people go.
This is because you’re managing a much smaller group of players and I assume you’re able to tailor consequences based on what each of them do. The reason I wrote my analogy that way is because this is how the plot works in WoW. Ever since the story started becoming more focused with linear progression around MoP, the game assumes you’ve been there for each story beat because it has to account for old players, new ones, people who didn’t feel like doing all of the quests, etc. The alternative is what FF14 did in between its relaunch and first expansion, where the player is gated from accessing the new zone until they do all 100ish of the plot quests in between (I’m not even exaggerating).
I chose the Saurfang side but I feel like it doesn’t matter, because I still had a hand in the War of Thorns. I could have refused to do it altogether and I still would have canonically been a part of it, because Blizzard likes removing this teaser content to keep people subscribed. I haven’t done the Darkshore warfront quests yet, but that doesn’t stop Tyrande from doing the ritual. And when 8.2 comes out, the game’s story will have assumed I was there for it anyway.