Your claim here is mostly a straw man argument, one that has been corrected far too many times to do again.
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Easy. You will not claim that the Ebon Spear is equal to the night elves, will you?
I shouldnât reply to this, because Iâve replied to exactly this nonsense several times already, but I also havenât seen you before.
The situation in Kalimdor is what I like to refer to as a âMexican Standoff Pinâ, which would be akin to two bishops poised to take each other that canât move out of the way lest the opposing bishop take the queen that sits behind them. To deal with this situation, you need to reinforce the pinned piece or relieve the pin.
Darnassusâs and Orgrimmarâs armies were protecting their respective territories. The first army that moved was the first army that would have left their core territories vulnerable. Alliance planners should have considered this. They did not. Instead, this is what they believed was going to happen:
Saurfang was going to take an army, on foot, through the barrens (recall that he had a lot of siege weapons, this is why air transport doesnât work for those who are wondering). He was going to take that army south to the Thousand Needles, somehow transit the entire thing down there, and then I guess ask that entire army, supplies, catapults and everything, to swim to Tanaris where they would then march through a scorching hot, bug infested desert on their way to then march through a dinosaur infested jungle. They would then presumably march that army into yet another scorching, bug infested desert to harvest Azerite.
I think even the second Russian Pacific Squadron had an easier logistical mountain to climb than that.
Instead of realizing this, however, Tyrande and Anduin decide to allow for a discover check on their queen, and the Horde came pouring in. In addition to that, the Night Elves regional allies didnât help, Stormwind sent no assistance via portal, the Horde demonstrated more knowledge of the territory somehow than its defenders, and catapults managed to fire across a far-too-wide water gap and combust a living tree in a temperate climate surrounded by water simply by virtue of the rocks touching the wood.
This is just a brief, incomplete accounting of the elements that had to be ignored, twisted, or forced into place to make this scenario work, which is why I assert that regarding it as a default is bad faith argumentation.
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Night Elves donât have a spy network worth talking about. Night Elves are good at sneaking, and they are excellent scout observers, but theyâre too stand offish to do the people part of being a spy as good as Humans or Goblins manage all other things being equal.
The Horde isnât a stranger to Ashenvale. Theyâve been maintaining posts in the territory since the original landing on Kalimdor. And as they demonstrated quite amply in the Eastern Kingdoms, they excel at forest guerilla activities. Night Elves never had the lock in these areas. As far as burning raw trees. The Horde does have itâs shamans, theyâre far deeper into the shamanic arts than the Alliance races who study the practise.
They relied on Stormwind, which flooded Orgrimmar with spies per the novellas.
I donât recall any Night Elf fan making any comment regarding an independent Night Elf spy network. Zarrinâs point here, like much of the rest of the post, looks like a straw man argument.
yikes you people hate on Sylvanas for what she did but you act just like how she does but irl lmao
Justice? No you want blood. Vengeance and war is never the right path UNLESS if youâre Alliance XD
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We could go point by point, but I wonât. Youâre twisting elements into place and headcanoning explanations to make things work. Your argumentation is elastic, and knowing you, you will stretch that rubber band until it breaks, and then youâll take either end and stretch it some more.
The scenario was absurdly improbable, it should never have happened, and people need to stop defending it or asserting it as a default.
Was Vanilla not imbalanced?
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Yes, but in a different way that was improperly corrected.
No one for instance disputes that the Horde needed more questing territory. What was disputed was going about this in a way that made the Horde appear dominant and the Alliance appear weak. You canât be seen as giving advantages to one side or the other, in any category, and expect the rivalry to not get toxic.
Case in point: The Night Elves technically won Ashenvale, but Blizzardâs choices in environmental design, phasing, and quest design make it look like the Horde won. That point is agnostic of questing expansion or additional zones.
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Which claim? The Night Elf fans try to say itâs unrealistic that they wouldnât win due to X, Y, Z?
Huh. Guess itâs not that one.
Is it that Night Elf fans have a power fantasy due to a racial description that has led to them feeling victimized when they donât live up to that racial description?
Because youâve previously agreed about that one. Heck you were the one who linked it as evidence that Night Elves should be able to do all those awesome things.
Got it. The Horde beat the Night Elves now you want to show off the Night Elves beating up the Horde. Not Jaina and Anduin and Malfurion and some Night Elves and some Gnomes and Worgen. The Night Elves.
Well maybe then itâs not about meâŠ
Huh. Another person you claim isnât making fair arguments (sometimes with fun condescending insults) so youâre just going to say itâs wrong and move on. I wonder if you realize how disrespectful you are to everyone else.
I think from now on Iâm just going to reply to your posts with the same level of respect you show others.
It seems like everyone just doesnât argue fairly with you! And they need a good talking down to to help them become more rational and see your truth.
Or youâre basically just a bully who dismisses everyone who disagrees with you and usually accompanies it in a generally insulting manner.
And I canât believe I missed this gem.
Yeah. That time off did not help you much.
In short - Iâll just go with your replies.
Wrong.
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That Iâve decided to stop treating bad faith arguments that Iâve encountered hundreds of times with more credence that they deserve does not translate to this. I have no intention of wasting my time with intentionally defective arguments.
Such as the âNight Elf fans just want Night Elves to be godsâ lie that has been percolating since Cataclysm. It is, was, always has been and always will be a bad faith attack used to justify manifestly unfair content.
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Alliance and Horde players have been pointing fingers since the start of the game and claiming the devs are biased toward the other team.
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How much of a bubble do you have to reside in to think that basically everyone disagreeing with you is doing so through defective arguments? Thatâs a level of intellectual bankruptcy that is hard to fathom.
More importantly, why do you feel the need to be rude and condescending to them?
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To a degree, both sides are right for a reason that puts them on both sides of the same coin.
Dave Kosak laid down that the AvH conflict would be a bog standard good guy versus bad guy story in his âFargo and Faction Favoritismâ post way back in 2011. In response to Alliance complaints of bias, he established that the world is an unjust place and that bad things need to happen for the hero to rise - again, in particular context to the Alliance feeling beat down upon.
It was subtle, but unmistakable. The Horde were the bad guys creating the unjust world. The Alliance were the heroes who were hit hard in the beginning, but fixed it.
Thatâs imbalanced in at least two ways on a faction level, contradicts what people were initially sold, and slotted races into roles in conflict with what an MMO is supposed to go for - that is that you pick something that represents you and through the phantasm underlying their avatar, become your own protagonist.
If Iâm curt itâs because time is a factor. Namely, I am tired of wasting it on people who will deliberately ignore critical elements in order to make their claims, such as what things people have actually said versus what you would prefer them to have said.
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Because attacking the person making the argument and NOT the argument itself is the usual M.O. that human beings irl use when their own arguments are not up to par to the discussion.
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Thatâs avoiding the primary question and refusing to engage with the actual secondary comment by reframing it in a lens you prefer.
Wrong.
Itâs called rejecting your framing.
You still ignored the question and sidestepped the secondary aspect to reframe and shift the argument away from the original commentary.
Wrong.
No one has made this point besides people making strawman arguments such as yourself.
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Actually many did in the horde redeem thread. Whining that the remaining night elf present ( malfurion+ city guard being overwhelmed 8 to 1) shouldnât have lost to the whole horde is exactly asking for this. The argument went for a while with many NE poster saying that the horde wining against those few force was spitting on the NE and destroying the NE fantasyâŠ
People here should really stop calling everything ââstrawmanââ argument just because they donât know what the other poster is talking aboutâŠ
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