I actually just simmed it, changing only the OH. HoS OH was 1872 DPS, RH was 1807 DPS, and FEB is so bad it’s not even in the sim. If you go from 2m to 5m fight, RH is 1757 DPS, and HoS is 1829 DPS. Using the same parameters, Malchazeens is 1706 DPS, or 1731 DPS with FT. Which shows that speed absolutely matters.
Now imagine if we had a good epic OH.
so the only options that count are matched speeds, because that’s what’s GOOD for shamans. Got it.
so?
kittys use that helm even at 70. You just don’t want anything else to count so you can make a case that your in a special circumstance and that justifies special treatment. It doesn’t.
guess what class raids are looking for 4-5 of? the class they want more of in the raid then ANY other class…shaman.
now imagine if shadow priests benefited from crit and intellect. There’s nothing wrong with your bis being a blue, you just want MORE dps, aka, a buff. The only legit complaint here imo is the pvp changes.
What of nonsense sim do we have people doing 1872 DPS? Shamans are not going to be doing over 1800 DPS in P1. Not saying what you said is wrong on weapon speed, but you are probably going to be doing about 1k DPS in P1.
It makes me wonder what sims you are running because it is no where even close to realistic DPS numbers, even under optimal conditions.
For speed synching and staggering, yes. We’ll have a third weapon that isn’t matched as not synching/staggering while on trash has a weird effect gaining negative DPS due to haste interactions. But… there’s still no good offhand, as all the epic choices are too fast. Way, way too fast.
Why are we talking about authentic to TBC performance? This also wouldn’t be a buff, it’s actually how it worked during early TBC. Sure, Kara weapons were MH-only until 2.3 and BS weapons were MH-only until 2.4~, but S1 Glad weapons were far easier to get at the time than this new system.
As several posters have said, we’re fine with 1 or 2 of the changes - BS weapons and Kara weapons being MH only is authentic - but the third is a step too far. Two of the three, any of them, would be largely fine.
This is in full BiS with literally everything available contributing to DPS on a Patchwerk style fight. It’s unlikely we’ll see those numbers, given that’s not realistic, but they’re not so far out there.
It’s the current most updated and accurate sim for Enhancement from the discord.
Also this late reply to just talk about the high DPS and not admitting you were entirely wrong is… funny.
I did say the pvp complaint is legit. My main issue here is that people are whining that shamans have a blue as a bis. Then when i point out that MANY classes have been in the same boat, they basically just say those don’t count for…reasons. I can’t think of a single logical reason that makes those other blues “good” that also makes yours “bad” how is needing matched weapon speeds more or less gimmicky then say, needing wolfshead helm because it gives you 20 energy when you shift into cat form. Both things offer such a large dps increase that even significant amounts of other stats don’t outweigh them. It’s a similar story with things from classic like the UDC set. Bloodvine is a little different, but only because it doesn’t offer unique effects like UDC or wolfshead do. It’s splitting hairs though, bloodvine is well itemized for classes that are hurting for hit, sort of like how the blue mace is well itemized in terms of speed for shamans.
It’d be fine (for the PvE side of things) if BS was still one hand, or if Kara weapons were. That’s my point.
Once again, there is a difference. You are confusing blues being so good with there not being any other choice. I have said this several times to you.
Hand of Justice, Wolfshead, Beast Lord, Bloodvine, etc. all were used so long because they were so good. Our offhand is a blue because the only choice is a Glad weapon.
It doesn’t count. Ignoring the “so good” argument, it has never been a weapon. A weapon that isn’t a stat stick, that is used for it’s damage.
We need a matched weapon in this particular instance, and the only ones available during early TBC (due to an oversight and lack of understanding by Blizzard) was Glad. Which they just changed. They fixed this later in TBC with the Kara weapons and later BS weapons but undid it for “authenticity” reasons.
Vanilla was a mess of design, and TBC was, “supposed” to fix that. It’s also, as I said, a lack of good gear in our case vs. being amazing for those that wore it. The weapons aren’t amazing at all.
Glad weapons were always an option early in TBC - but this is not the case in TBCC because of terrible meddling.
alright then. blood vine wasn’t good, i was forced to use it because it was the only bis option.
Also, MCP much? that IS a weapon. which hole do i have to jump down next? since you just keep putting up obstacles. Will it only count next time if it’s a hammer used specifically by a shaman specifically for one talent tree in a specific particular point distribution? Oh, maybe we can toss in a specifically named player too! gotta keep moving those goal posts.
To an extent yes, BV was the sole source of a lot of required hit and so was needed for quite a while - until T3 for Warlocks. But that doesn’t mean the weapons available to Shaman are good in the same way.
MCP is a good point, because it provides something that actually benefits Druid more than a stat stick.
But keep on dismissing problems that are laid clear to you. Also, “this happened before!” is not a good excuse for it happening again - when it’s an inauthentic change causing this problem in the first place.
keep crying buddy. You have loads of options, they just aren’t bis. In your mind that means you don’t HAVE options, nothing exists execpt bis.
If it’s not bis it doesn’t exist!, that should probably be your catch line.
Dismissing legitimate criticism due to lack of foresight from Blizzard is not, “crying”.
I’m going to be using the blue axe unless I can get Glad. That’s life. But I will absolutely call Blizzard out for their terrible meddling.
calling bis blues for any other class “good” but 1 bis blue item for your chosen class “bad” is legitimate… lol
If you didn’t sound like my 4 yr old nephew trying to explain fairness i’d have more sympathy for you.
You’ve got a point with the pvp changes, not sure what blizz is smoking there. Everything else is just drivel.
It being BiS because there isn’t an alternative (outside of the Glad weapon which they just made harder to get) is not the same as it being actually a really good piece that is overbudgeted/overperforming. Because it doesn’t.
Ironically, if you use the BS weapon, you have higher DPS with a level 61 BoE or Axe of the Deep Woods. A vanilla world drop BoE. Because there aren’t any good 2.7s offhands.
As I’ve said, I am more than fine with the authenticity change to Kara/BS weapons. That’s absolutely fine and somewhat in line with what they’ve already done. The PvP change is overkill. If they want this to stay in place, they need to revert the Kara weapons change.
The petty insults and dismissals absolutely show how much you lack in empathy and in understanding. And, honestly, in basic logic.
Ehhhhh, resilience is extremely powerful in TBC. Full raid gear vs full pvp gear it’s like being 4 levels under for the pve player.
The problem isn’t that other classes don’t have good choices, it’s they have more choices and choices that aren’t as impactful on their DPS curve. With shamans the mechanics of WF/Flurry with 2 slow weapons at identical speed is the difference of 150+ dps (roughly) vs say a fury warrior (assuming they need the same qualifications) of 30 dps. This is why it’s such a huge issue and puts a spec that already has issues in pure raw DPS in a tougher spot. Will it keep Enhance out of raids? No not likely they bring to many tools that buff/help the rest of their group/raid. But they do become more of a liability in DPS checks because now the rest of your DPS have to make up for the DPS the shaman is now lacking because of this change.
that’s a fair assessment, and i agree mostly. I really don’t have a problem with the core argument that this hurts shamans, and that it would be better if they had better options available.
What i DO have a issue with is the complaint that it’s a blue. The color of the gear is mostly meaningless, and shamans aren’t the only class that’s been saddled with them from time to time.
As for the 150 dps, is that the difference between say, a pvp offhand and the dungeon blue option? Or is that the difference between matching weapons and mismatched ones? I’m not well versed in enhance shaman and to date i haven’t seen anyone offer up actual numbers on the blue offhand VS pvp\crafted\kara ones.
The lack of meaningful discourse is one of the reason’s i’ve been finding these threads so aggravating.
So would double GM weapons/heroic weapons of matching speeds (2.6/2.6) be higher dps than BS weapon MH with a heroic OH (2.7/2.6) even though the BS weapon is technically MH BIS?
It’s the dps difference from desync weapons. So 2.6/2.6 weapon set will on average do 150 more DPS than let’s say a 2.7/2.6 set. The faster speed on the OH can eat Flurry procs as well as put WF on a 3 sec CD since WF can proc off both weapons. Any WF proc on the OH weapon is 50% less than if it was on the MH weapon. This
is why it’s such a big deal.
No, though the speed is a major factor in Enhancement DPS profiles, Damage of the weapon still matters. GM/HW weapons normally get out paced in damage at around 65. SO even though they are matched in speed they’ll still get out performed by the BS 2.7/Heroic 2.6 set.
I get that, what i’m looking to figure out is how much of a dps nerf is not being able to access pvp\crafted\kara weps. If the dps loss for mismatched weapons is 150, the difference would have to be <150 dps for the blue to still be BIS. Judging from the reactions of people here about the lack of options, the dungeon blue is still significantly better then mismatched weps, so the blue is probably at least 50 DPS better then mismatched weapons. If this assumption is true then the loss is 100dps, maybe a lot less? That would be peak dps as well i assume, from a sim. So real world for the vast majority of players will be less then that.
Basically, if we ignore the color of the item (which i do, it’s not meaningful) how much of a figure are we looking at here? and is it enough to justify being upset about.