From my BWL clear I am showing the following uptime from warcraft logs.
53% Vael
15.9% Broodlord
21.6% Firemaw
22.66% Ebonroc
6.85% Flamegor
18.8% Chromaggus
26.3% on Nef
Apparently it didn’t even apply on Razorgore at all.
Does anybody else have competing statistics? Is Nightfall even worth it?
I don’t see anybody talking about this but I would be really interested to see if anybody else has done the numbers and seen whether it is an overall DPS increase or decrease to the raid to run a nightfall in place of a hunter or another dps.
With numbers this low I am struggling to see how it is worth me sacrificing my damage but maybe I am shortsighted and don’t realize the dps boost it is giving the casters in the raid?
Anybody else have some numbers they can post? Would love to see some discussion on this.
Would be nice to know the combined dps of the casters in your raid. Since nightfall scales both with the quantity and quality of the caster dps in your raid
A certain pally discord has been discussing it a lot. Apparently the old “spamstring/wingclip” trick doesn’t work as well as thought, because of how on-demand yellow attacks are batched in a weird way, nullifying whatever uptime gain they’d otherwise(a very broad way to put it, but that’s how I understood it.) Apparently, it actually worsens uptime.
General overall conclusion is that nightfall has a base 1ppm, and from a pally PoV, proc chance can be doubled via SoR, giving an average uptime of around 20% at about 1,000 swings. About 18% with SoC. (The following aren’t my logs.)
The consensus is that it currently is not worth it; the damage gained from the debuff does not make up for the damage lost from hunter/warrior spam rotations, or pally sitting in SoR. You’d get more or equal overall raid damage from a pally with OEB playing as normal ret than having them wield nightfall. I imagine it’s similar for warrior OT’s and melee/melee-weaving hunters.
It will, however, be more valuable later as casters get more powerful. Think naxx with ignite mages and when warlocks finally have a nice heap of hit gear. At the moment? It really makes no difference, and may actually be worse off than just having the nightfall player focusing on personal DPS.
(Edit: accidentally stated base PPM as 2 instead of 1 - it should be 2, but it is not.)
That’s really, really low. The inconsistency could be attributed to kill times/mechanics(like on firemaw especially), but also another concern is whether or not the proc is “missing” due to lack of spell hit.
Its PPM is half that of what it should be, and until it gets fixed or until casters get much more powerful, you’re better off optimizing for personal throughput.
15 x 300 = 4500 dps for the casters.
10 % debuff uptime : 0.1 * 4500 = 450 DPS.
Nightfall gives 15% increase.
450* 1.15 = 517 dps.
Assuming my math is correct, 517 dps just from equipping the weapon alone. It is definitely worth using for some specs/fights and it only continues to scale as caster dps increases with gear.
We averaged about 30% uptime I believe with a single Nightfall.
Special note about Vael: Nightfall Warriors don’t lose a lot of DPS compared with the more standard DW Fury. So you should equip it for Vael at the very least, even if it’s not worth it on the rest of the bosses.
It’s possible, our Chromaggus and firemaw kills were very scrappy from an uptime PoV as the GM wanted to play safe over a “normal” strat to cement our server first spot.
This makes me salty as all hell to be honest. I spent a heap of time grinding all the materials with the exception of the cores and I wanted to use it as a set and forget weapon.
Then that’s really concerning. I’m not sure how shaman windfury acts with weapon procs, though. Might be worth checking what other shamans are saying about it.
That’s what I suspected given the mechanics of those fights in particular. The magic vulnerability to chromaggus isn’t all that important anyways since casters aren’t gonna be doing much DPS on that fight anyways. Firemaw has pretty low melee uptime unless cheesing it with 200+ fire resist(which might be of interest to a nightfall wielder)
A lot of paladins ain’t happy about it either. Lots of reports of the amount of damage gained by the raid being no different, or sometimes even worse, than if they were to just build for personal DPS.
It obviously fluctuates on the amount and performance of casters you have, but for my raid of only 6 mages and 2 locks, it certainly ain’t worth it and won’t be for a while. Feel like I went axesmith for nothing now, even though my original plan was to do it for the guild because I knew almost everyone and their mother was going armorsmith.
From my observations with the weapon, it appears as though the proc rate (and uptime) has been significantly lower in raids (around 8% proc rate) compared to outside of raids. (Around 11% proc rate)
The only reason I can think to cause this is something weird with spell hit, but it is unconfirmed / untested.
For now, hunters are better off shooting a bow than using nightfall.
If you lose more than ~50 dps to swing it, no one should be using it in it’s current state. The only class I can think of where it may be all gain is ret paladins, although doing their best dps rotation they only get ~15 uptime. (Although they too have better options)
Yeah, that’s one nice thing about a fight where you can freely execute to your heart’s content.
Yeah, that’s why it makes no sense to do low dps rotations (like wingclip spam) to push an extra 10% uptime on the debuff. The returns are just not there.
Nightfall seems to be a good weapon to craft if it would be a sidegrade/upgrade to your current dps setup. If you are taking a large hit to use it, probably just wait for now. We can re-evaluate the math in later tiers as caster dps increases.
I am still interested in why I have been seeing a lower proc rate in raids compared to out of raid.
I always thought that a hunter using nightfall and spamming wing clip was an incredible meme that literally no one ever did. Are you using nightfall? Why? It should be used by off tanks when not tanking, and ret pallies/enhanc shaman. Your lost dps as a hunter is probably negating, or very close to negating, the bonus your casters are getting. (Depending on how many casters your raid has) and even if it’s still a dps increase for your casters, the lost dps you have could be made smaller by having an off tank or ret pally use t instead.
Wow, it’s the worlds first mage that never cared about his dps.
Yeah never mind his conclusion was misleading. His numbers are way off regardless though because 15 caster dps is higher than most guilds run, and 300 dps for each is also fairly low and varies a lot from guild to guild and fight to fight.
We have an enh sham that loses minimal personal dps from equipping it so that’s kind of a no brainer for us. I was toying with the idea of having a hunter use one too but probably won’t.