03/19/2018 01:33 PMPosted by
Jefra
Between crusader the t3 set bonus healthstones and shadow pots the rogue doesn't need heals he's not gonna die before the boss dies.
Does not help the tank who's actually more integral to the raid than the single DPS.
03/19/2018 01:33 PMPosted by
Jefra
Between crusader the t3 set bonus healthstones and shadow pots the rogue doesn't need heals he's not gonna die before the boss dies.
Does not help the tank who's actually more integral to the raid than the single DPS.
That's where the healers come in and do their job. Imagine that healers who heal the tank? Novel concept huh?
I’ll just post it again:
How well does this data hold up if instead of 60-seconds encounters, we have 5-10 minutes encounters?
Ideally the 1.10 itemization changes never happen and we have mages stacking intellect and spirit for 15-minutes Nefarian. In that case, does the difference between survival and bm dps become noticeable? What about Nightfall uptimes, are they the same?
It does not stack up because the itemization is not the problem on the private realms.
Kill times did not change much in original vanilla as of 1.10; they did however reduce with 1.11 when tanking was changed.
Regardless of this it was not by the massive amount reduced on the private realms.
The private realm kill times are a result of private server tuning and guess work. Instead of trying to mirror original kill times they were simply married to the gross figures they could find with research. This is a noble way to do things, but does not net you the results you're going to get when playing on servers that were tuned more like original world of warcraft.
Hits, glancing blows, misses, dodges, blocks, parry, resists, armor. No one actually knows how this is calculated on the original blizzard servers because one of this stuff is calculated on the client side; it was all done on the server side.
The client does show us a few things, but it does not get into the meat and potatoes of the boss fights.
Not sure if what you wrote about server-side/client-side is entirely correct, but I do know that 1.10 killed most early raiding overnight. In one week everyone was wearing +spell damage everything and no one ever ran out of mana anymore. I know it because I was one of the noobs who ran ZG at the time and we were suddenly zerging everything, including Hakkar.
This thread pops up on every fresh server launch.
End result: NOBODY takes a melee hunter to raids.
On a side note: Melee hunter is a great leveling spec if you can upkeep decent gear.
This thread pops up on every fresh server launch.
End result: NOBODY takes a melee hunter to raids.
On a side note: Melee hunter is a great leveling spec if you can upkeep decent gear.
Its always by the same couple of people to. Which is why I said earlier I admired his dedication.
03/19/2018 01:40 PMPosted by
Jefra
...
Does not help the tank who's actually more integral to the raid than the single DPS.
That's where the healers come in and do their job. Imagine that healers who heal the tank? Novel concept huh?
Global cooldowns are a problem for healers in Classic WoW because its 1.5 seconds.
Also healers in classic wow must hard cast their big heals. The only healer that has an instant cast of any magnitude outside of Lay on hands is Restoration druid's nature's swiftness CD.
Some times you just need a big heal right now. That's why lay on hands is so damn good. This is not the only that a paladin can do either; they also bring a lot of really powerful buffs.
Not sure if what you wrote about server-side/client-side is entirely correct, but I do know that 1.10 killed most early raiding overnight. In one week everyone was wearing +spell damage everything and no one ever ran out of mana anymore. I know it because I was one of the noobs who ran ZG at the time and we were suddenly zerging everything, including Hakkar.
I agree with you on the itemization change; but its something that can be dealt with by giving the old raid bosses a lot more HP, and making them do a lot more damage to compensate for that increased player damage.
This will make non spell damage gear a lot more valuable because when you mirror the original kill time needed to down a boss you're going to need to work smarter instead of just zerg the boss. Fights become more about staying power at that point, and correct observation of raid mechanics.
There are ways to correct the problem; I just don't know how receptive the community is regarding a change that gives the old raids back their original intended epic feel.
03/19/2018 01:40 PMPosted by
Jefra
...
That's where the healers come in and do their job. Imagine that healers who heal the tank? Novel concept huh?
Global cooldowns are a problem for healers in Classic WoW because its 1.5 seconds.
Also healers in classic wow must hard cast their big heals. The only healer that has an instant cast of any magnitude outside of Lay on hands is Restoration druid's nature's swiftness CD.
Some times you just need a big heal right now. That's why lay on hands is so damn good. This is not the only that a paladin can do either; they also bring a lot of really powerful buffs.
Sure I love Paladin buffs and they make for really great healers no arguments here.
03/19/2018 02:00 PMPosted by
Jefra
Sure I love Paladin buffs and they make for really great healers no arguments here.
Every talent tree brings something valuable.
If you want sanctity aura you bring a protection paladin because its too deep into prot for any other build to get it.
If you want improved Crusader or improved Might, you have a retribution paladin bring it because wasting talents on that as holy is kinda wasteful.
If you want Kings, you have a ret bring that, because you're not brining ret for consecrated ground or his leet DPS, but because of his buffs and debuffs package and the handy fact that the ret paladin is already in melee range where you do not want your healers to be in most situations.
03/19/2018 02:00 PMPosted by
Jefra
Sure I love Paladin buffs and they make for really great healers no arguments here.
Every talent tree brings something valuable.
If you want sanctity aura you bring a protection paladin because its too deep into prot for any other build to get it.
If you want improved Crusader or improved Might, you have a retribution paladin bring it because wasting talents on that as holy is kinda wasteful.
If you want Kings, you have a ret bring that, because you're not brining ret for consecrated ground or his leet DPS, but because of his buffs and debuffs package and the handy fact that the ret paladin is already in melee range where you do not want your healers to be in most situations.
You don't need a ret Paladin for kings.... Its a easy talent to have one of your holy Paladins to get.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
No but a warrior can.
I'll repeat this here since you ignored it...
CAN A ROGUE OR WARRIOR KEEP THEIR ENTIRE GROUP TOPPED OFF WITH AOE HEALS USING THEIR 8/8 TIER 1 SET BONUS?!?!?
Between crusader the t3 set bonus healthstones and shadow pots the rogue doesn't need heals he's not gonna die before the boss dies.[/quote]
I have 4 Warlocks so that they can lifetap or 3 Warlocks and the MT in my group you moron...
Also for the love of god, learn how to properly chain link quotes, jesus.
I’ll just post it again:
How well does this data hold up if instead of 60-seconds encounters, we have 5-10 minutes encounters?
Ideally the 1.10 itemization changes never happen and we have mages stacking intellect and spirit for 15-minutes Nefarian. In that case, does the difference between survival and bm dps become noticeable? What about Nightfall uptimes, are they the same?
It does not stack up because the itemization is not the problem on the private realms.
Kill times did not change much in original vanilla as of 1.10; they did however reduce with 1.11 when tanking was changed.
Regardless of this it was not by the massive amount reduced on the private realms.
The private realm kill times are a result of private server tuning and guess work. Instead of trying to mirror original kill times they were simply married to the gross figures they could find with research. This is a noble way to do things, but does not net you the results you're going to get when playing on servers that were tuned more like original world of warcraft.
Hits, glancing blows, misses, dodges, blocks, parry, resists, armor. No one actually knows how this is calculated on the original blizzard servers because one of this stuff is calculated on the client side; it was all done on the server side.
The client does show us a few things, but it does not get into the meat and potatoes of the boss fights.
you're lumping all private servers together in one bad bunch:
feenix =/= vanilla gaming =/= nostalrius =/= kronos =/= elysium =/= lightshope
lightshope is by far the closest thing anyone has come to retail vanilla wow or will ever come for that matter...
03/19/2018 01:55 PMPosted by
Jefra
This thread pops up on every fresh server launch.
End result: NOBODY takes a melee hunter to raids.
On a side note: Melee hunter is a great leveling spec if you can upkeep decent gear.
Its always by the same couple of people to. Which is why I said earlier I admired his dedication.
we now have the actual MATH to back up our claims that we've said for years...
Enjoy your fairy tale I am out.
This thread pops up on every fresh server launch.
End result: NOBODY takes a melee hunter to raids.
On a side note: Melee hunter is a great leveling spec if you can upkeep decent gear.
03/19/2018 02:59 PMPosted by
Jefra
Enjoy your fairy tale I am out.
is MATH too hard for you?
PS that's how you thread a quote in your post
03/19/2018 02:59 PMPosted by
Jefra
Enjoy your fairy tale I am out.
What do you care any way? Its not like you're going to play a hybrid because you're afraid your DPS meter ranking will appear to be lacking.
The biggest problem in WoW history has been bad players who worship meters that don't tell the whole story.
No matter how you frame it, no meter made so far in any version of WoW paints the entire picture because they don't mention Joe the raider standing in the wrong place soaking up a bunch of damage he should not be.
They don't track how much damage Philianna the druid save Jenny the warlock from when she removed that debuff.
They cant detect how much healing Sam the Retribution paladin saved the raid when he BoP'd Timmy the Hunter after timmy failed to FD vs the boss he pulled aggro on that's also immune to taunt.
They don't list the damage increase given to raid through better stat allocation because James, Fredrick, Samatha, and Rodger all bring Frost resistance aura. On the other side of that coin they don't track how much damage those players saved the raid from with those resitance buffs.
Meters also fail to show you just how much DPS Fredrick the paladin gave the raid by putting up Blessing of Salvation.
Meters also fail to show how much healing the raid saved because Samatha the offtank provided the raid Blessing of Sanctuary.
So many things that meters just don't show, and when people go on and on about their meters it just goes to show how ignorant of the whole these people are.
03/19/2018 02:59 PMPosted by
Jefra
Enjoy your fairy tale I am out.
What do you care any way? Its not like you're going to play a hybrid because you're afraid your DPS meter ranking will appear to be lacking.
The biggest problem in WoW history has been bad players who worship meters that don't tell the whole story.
No matter how you frame it, no meter made so far in any version of WoW paints the entire picture because they don't mention Joe the raider standing in the wrong place soaking up a bunch of damage he should not be.
They don't track how much damage Philianna the druid save Jenny the warlock from when she removed that debuff.
They cant detect how much healing Sam the Retribution paladin saved the raid when he BoP'd Timmy the Hunter after timmy failed to FD vs the boss he pulled aggro on that's also immune to taunt.
They don't list the damage increase given to raid through better stat allocation because James, Fredrick, Samatha, and Rodger all bring Frost resistance aura. On the other side of that coin they don't track how much damage those players saved the raid from with those resitance buffs.
Meters also fail to show you just how much DPS Fredrick the paladin gave the raid by putting up Blessing of Salvation.
Meters also fail to show how much healing the raid saved because Samatha the offtank provided the raid Blessing of Sanctuary.
So many things that meters just don't show, and when people go on and on about their meters it just goes to show how ignorant of the whole these people are.
While it won't have any effect on me I will feel sorry for the people who don't know any better who will roll a hybrid thinking they can get into a good guild but end up either being guildless or benched or in a low tier guild because they listened to someone on the forums.
03/19/2018 03:31 PMPosted by
Jefra
While it won't have any effect on me I will feel sorry for the people who don't know any better who will roll a hybrid thinking they can get into a good guild but end up either being guildless or benched or in a low tier guild because they listened to someone on the forums.
There is a difference between some one who reads an official blizzard document and is told how things are, and then finds out those were all wrong.
Every one knows that hybrids cannot DPS like a Rogue, Mage, Hunter, Warlock or Warrior.
Their skill set is entirely different, and their use in raid is actually different; it even states it in the name. *Hybrid* Meaning they don't just focus on a single thing, but have to take on more than one role in game.
Players interested in playing a hybrid should go visit their class forum and ask a lot of questions about how to gear their intended role, how to play a strategy that works, and what's best for their raid / dungeon team.
Managing your expectations in any situation in life is key to happiness; if you go in thinking you're going to keep up with a combat rogue I will simply laugh at you. If you go in thinking you will contribute a real value to the raid you're going to be invited regardless of your role. I just expect you to know how to play that role to 75% of its capacity, and yes that's asking a bit of the player base.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
What do you care any way? Its not like you're going to play a hybrid because you're afraid your DPS meter ranking will appear to be lacking.
The biggest problem in WoW history has been bad players who worship meters that don't tell the whole story.
No matter how you frame it, no meter made so far in any version of WoW paints the entire picture because they don't mention Joe the raider standing in the wrong place soaking up a bunch of damage he should not be.
They don't track how much damage Philianna the druid save Jenny the warlock from when she removed that debuff.
They cant detect how much healing Sam the Retribution paladin saved the raid when he BoP'd Timmy the Hunter after timmy failed to FD vs the boss he pulled aggro on that's also immune to taunt.
They don't list the damage increase given to raid through better stat allocation because James, Fredrick, Samatha, and Rodger all bring Frost resistance aura. On the other side of that coin they don't track how much damage those players saved the raid from with those resitance buffs.
Meters also fail to show you just how much DPS Fredrick the paladin gave the raid by putting up Blessing of Salvation.
Meters also fail to show how much healing the raid saved because Samatha the offtank provided the raid Blessing of Sanctuary.
So many things that meters just don't show, and when people go on and on about their meters it just goes to show how ignorant of the whole these people are.
While it won't have any effect on me I will feel sorry for the people who don't know any better who will roll a hybrid thinking they can get into a good guild but end up either being guildless or benched or in a low tier guild because they listened to someone on the forums.
Once again...
I DID NOT RUN THE TESTS MYSELF
The tests were run by KEFTENK and AYERI wrote the macro to track the Nightfall uptime.
As I said earlier in this thread, hate on me all you want - I don't care.
But you cannot DISPUTE THE MATH!!!
PS Keep in mind that Ayeri and most if not all of his guild (Coalition - Anathema) hated me and vice versa prior to this experiment but we agreed to put our past issues aside in the interest of discovering what the test results would be here - we were both pleasantly surprised at what the outcome was.
Threads like these remind me of a few hard truths in these forums:
75% of you guys:
have no clue about the accuracy of private servers
must not understand basic testing protocol
have a very bad memory for how vanilla worked (or) don't realize that strategy and optimization may not have been perfect and there are new levels of optimization still to be learned
Those that fit the above are in for a very rude awakening when classic hits.
Exhibit A right here. Never mind the test after test after test saying that melee hunter is optimal dps. Nope head in the sand.
This thread pops up on every fresh server launch.
End result: NOBODY takes a melee hunter to raids.
You guys think hunters are going to be excited about this? Probably not. But that's not the point of this. It's not the point of it to extol the virtues of paladins either. THE POINT IS to have people recognize that a certain playstyle can be a very large dps component that can change the idea of optimization if a player plays around that ability.
Go ahead and bring up how little we all know about vanilla theorycrafting and how we're just stumbling around in the dark. There is very little that is not known about this game when we are talking about core mechanics. And what is different isn't impacted by these tests.
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