...
While it won't have any effect on me I will feel sorry for the people who don't know any better who will roll a hybrid thinking they can get into a good guild but end up either being guildless or benched or in a low tier guild because they listened to someone on the forums.
Once again...
I DID NOT RUN THE TESTS MYSELF
The tests were run by KEFTENK and AYERI wrote the macro to track the Nightfall uptime.
As I said earlier in this thread, hate on me all you want - I don't care.
But you cannot DISPUTE THE MATH!!!
PS Keep in mind that Ayeri and most if not all of his guild (Coalition - Anathema) hated me and vice versa prior to this experiment but we agreed to put our past issues aside in the interest of discovering what the test results would be here - we were both pleasantly surprised at what the outcome was.
You are like the flat earthers. Arguing for years against all the empirical evidence that suggest otherwise. But carry on I am actually out this time.
03/19/2018 02:59 PMPosted by
Jefra
Enjoy your fairy tale I am out.
What do you care any way? Its not like you're going to play a hybrid because you're afraid your DPS meter ranking will appear to be lacking.
The biggest problem in WoW history has been bad players who worship meters that don't tell the whole story.
No matter how you frame it, no meter made so far in any version of WoW paints the entire picture because they don't mention Joe the raider standing in the wrong place soaking up a bunch of damage he should not be.
They don't track how much damage Philianna the druid save Jenny the warlock from when she removed that debuff.
They cant detect how much healing Sam the Retribution paladin saved the raid when he BoP'd Timmy the Hunter after timmy failed to FD vs the boss he pulled aggro on that's also immune to taunt.
They don't list the damage increase given to raid through better stat allocation because James, Fredrick, Samatha, and Rodger all bring Frost resistance aura. On the other side of that coin they don't track how much damage those players saved the raid from with those resitance buffs.
Meters also fail to show you just how much DPS Fredrick the paladin gave the raid by putting up Blessing of Salvation.
Meters also fail to show how much healing the raid saved because Samatha the offtank provided the raid Blessing of Sanctuary.
So many things that meters just don't show, and when people go on and on about their meters it just goes to show how ignorant of the whole these people are.
truer words have never been spoken.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Once again...
I DID NOT RUN THE TESTS MYSELF
The tests were run by KEFTENK and AYERI wrote the macro to track the Nightfall uptime.
As I said earlier in this thread, hate on me all you want - I don't care.
But you cannot DISPUTE THE MATH!!!
PS Keep in mind that Ayeri and most if not all of his guild (Coalition - Anathema) hated me and vice versa prior to this experiment but we agreed to put our past issues aside in the interest of discovering what the test results would be here - we were both pleasantly surprised at what the outcome was.
You are like the flat earthers. Arguing for years against all the empirical evidence that suggest otherwise. But carry on I am actually out this time.
Well, do you have numbers to back what you are saying up? Because OP made a pretty compelling argument. What part of the study do you think was done wrong, and why do you think rets are never worth it, regardless of the situation?
EDIT: OP hasnât answered my question yet, despite the fact that I keep repeating it. It is relevant to the threadâs content and probably merits a better answer than what he gave to those derailing the thread.
...
You are like the flat earthers. Arguing for years against all the empirical evidence that suggest otherwise. But carry on I am actually out this time.
Well, do you have numbers to back what you are saying up? Because OP made a pretty compelling argument. What part of the study do you think was done wrong, and why do you think rets are never worth it, regardless of the situation?
EDIT: OP hasnât answered my question yet, despite the fact that I keep repeating it. It is relevant to the threadâs content and probably merits a better answer than what he gave to those derailing the thread.
I had asked you to repost your question.
Nightfall is mostly for Prot Warriors. If you're not tanking something, you're Nightfalling. You can also justify an Arms Warrior with it, especially when Blood Frenzy is available.
That feel when someone forgets ret pallys and shamans.
03/20/2018 09:57 AMPosted by
Myronas
Nightfall is mostly for Prot Warriors. If you're not tanking something, you're Nightfalling. You can also justify an Arms Warrior with it, especially when Blood Frenzy is available.
That feel when someone forgets ret pallys and shamans.
Yea, I had replied to this guy earlier in the thread - Arms isn't viable or optimal in anyway during Vanilla since Mortal Strike takes up a debuff slot and is useless in PvE.
But I digress - in a perfect world, the optimal setup to maintain close to 100% nightfall proc uptime is this:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Prot Warrior***
***Prot OT weapon twists Annihilator to 3 stacks for armour shatter, switching to Nightfall, going back to Annihilator at 35 sec duration to refresh, then back to Nightfall, rinse, repeat***obviously though on some boss fights involving multiple targets or Patchwerk, having the Prot OT swing Nightfall isnt possible so they just use Annihilator only in those situations while the melee hunter and I swing nightfall
03/20/2018 09:57 AMPosted by
Myronas
...
That feel when someone forgets ret pallys and shamans.
Yea, I had replied to this guy earlier in the thread - Arms isn't viable or optimal in anyway during Vanilla since Mortal Strike takes up a debuff slot and is useless in PvE.
But I digress - in a perfect world, the optimal setup to maintain close to 100% nightfall proc uptime is this:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Prot Warrior***
***Prot OT weapon twists Annihilator to 3 stacks for armour shatter, switching to Nightfall, going back to Annihilator at 35 sec duration to refresh, then back to Nightfall, rinse, repeat***
obviously though on some boss fights involving multiple targets or Patchwerk, having the Prot OT swing Nightfall isnt possible so they just use Annihilator only in those situations while the melee hunter and I swing nightfall
I lol at melee hunters for many reason and they will find out when they play.
Plz donât QQ on forums about melee hunters when you find out and play the game. If you do I will be there to lol. I am sure u will tho. You have a great write up but it is like a rogue wielding axes. What do I know. The only reason I lol is when the QQ begins. Not that you play a melee hunter. It is what u as a player wants to.
03/20/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Zezeall
...
Yea, I had replied to this guy earlier in the thread - Arms isn't viable or optimal in anyway during Vanilla since Mortal Strike takes up a debuff slot and is useless in PvE.
But I digress - in a perfect world, the optimal setup to maintain close to 100% nightfall proc uptime is this:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Prot Warrior***
***Prot OT weapon twists Annihilator to 3 stacks for armour shatter, switching to Nightfall, going back to Annihilator at 35 sec duration to refresh, then back to Nightfall, rinse, repeat***
obviously though on some boss fights involving multiple targets or Patchwerk, having the Prot OT swing Nightfall isnt possible so they just use Annihilator only in those situations while the melee hunter and I swing nightfall
I lol at melee hunters for many reason and they will find out when they play.
Plz donât QQ on forums about melee hunters when you find out and play the game. If you do I will be there to lol. I am sure u will tho. You have a great write up but it is like a rogue wielding axes. What do I know. The only reason I lol is when the QQ begins. Not that you play a melee hunter. It is what u as a player wants to.
I'm sure you will be able to find time to practice your English with some classes before Classic hits. It will really help your writing comprehension and make you look better on the forums.
03/20/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Zezeall
...
I lol at melee hunters for many reason and they will find out when they play.
Plz donât QQ on forums about melee hunters when you find out and play the game. If you do I will be there to lol. I am sure u will tho. You have a great write up but it is like a rogue wielding axes. What do I know. The only reason I lol is when the QQ begins. Not that you play a melee hunter. It is what u as a player wants to.
I'm sure you will be able to find time to practice your English with some classes before Classic hits. It will really help your writing comprehension and make you look better on the forums.
Meh. I donât care. Do I get paid to write here? No.
Typing from iPhone meh.
Vanilla's strongest Theory -Crafting team - 1
Keyboard warriors with no logical input on the subject - 0
Instead of people contributing to the conversation, they see OH the Ret paladin guy, let's assume this is a Ret paladin is BiS thread and just S*** on the guy and be rude instead of contribute to the conversation.
@Theo, I still remember your LoH saving my ARSz on Bug Trio with Kri last (al-la hard mode) Those rogues were being too slow on their raid saving abilities.
Vanilla's strongest Theory -Crafting team - 1
Keyboard warriors with no logical input on the subject - 0
Instead of people contributing to the conversation, they see OH the Ret paladin guy, let's assume this is a Ret paladin is BiS thread and just S*** on the guy and be rude instead of contribute to the conversation.
@Theo, I still remember your LoH saving my ARSz on Bug Trio with Kri last (al-la hard mode) Those rogues were being too slow on their raid saving abilities.
I saved our MT on Loatheb last week with a LoH at 3% when all the healers were silenced and the tank dipped below 400 hp and Smiter saved the Lady Blaumeaux tank on our first Four Horsement kill last night with a last second LoH as well due to two taunt resists in a row :)
Interesting thread. Shame to see that Shaman uptime is trash seeing as that's one of the few niches Enhancement could fulfill in a raid. At least PVP is a bit more kind to them when they've got good gear (and RNG) to work with, which is all I'll be doing with mine anyways.
Yes, I was personally quite surprised at how bad they were for their Nightfall proc uptime in the test results but then I remembered that Blizzard specifically nerfed Windfury in Vanilla so that the bonus swings would no longer generate weapon procs.
With that huge nerf and their only other alternatives being auto-attack and Stromstrike, that's where you get the low proc uptime results.
Could you point me to a patch note that says this?
Because I don't remember that happening.
...
Yes, I was personally quite surprised at how bad they were for their Nightfall proc uptime in the test results but then I remembered that Blizzard specifically nerfed Windfury in Vanilla so that the bonus swings would no longer generate weapon procs.
With that huge nerf and their only other alternatives being auto-attack and Stromstrike, that's where you get the low proc uptime results.
Could you point me to a patch note that says this?
Because I don't remember that happening.
Blizzard had to nerf it in 1.4 cause it could proc off of its own proc infinitum:
The History of Windfury Weapon (Vanilla WoW to Legion)https://youtu.be/Hg1yS8f-lPw?t=30
Windfury - Fixed a bug that caused an additional attack beyond what was intended. In addition, fixed a bug that caused the next normal melee attack to happen sooner than intended.http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.4.0
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Could you point me to a patch note that says this?
Because I don't remember that happening.
Blizzard had to nerf it in 1.4 cause it could proc off of its own proc infinitum:
The History of Windfury Weapon (Vanilla WoW to Legion)
https://youtu.be/Hg1yS8f-lPw?t=30
Windfury - Fixed a bug that caused an additional attack beyond what was intended. In addition, fixed a bug that caused the next normal melee attack to happen sooner than intended.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.4.0
Had no relation to weapon procs, and indeed, that patch note isn't even about that bug.
Blizzard's solution to the multi WF was to put a 3second cooldown on it. As of 1.4, WF was definitely still able to proc weapon procs; I remember using it with Jek'lik's Crusher with it.
Also, for what it's worth, I was never able to reproduce WF proccing itself in vanilla despite a significant amount of time spent testing it, and I still am not sure that that wasn't just a myth based on the 'next auto happens instantly' bug fixed in 1.4. What I believe actually was happening was that you got your normal auto, WF proc, next auto, and Stormstrike all happening at once, and each of the two autos and Stormstrike could proc WF. Since you're using a 2-hander, if all three of them proc WF, your target dies, and so it was impossible to prove what actually was happening.
...
Blizzard had to nerf it in 1.4 cause it could proc off of its own proc infinitum:
The History of Windfury Weapon (Vanilla WoW to Legion)
https://youtu.be/Hg1yS8f-lPw?t=30
Windfury - Fixed a bug that caused an additional attack beyond what was intended. In addition, fixed a bug that caused the next normal melee attack to happen sooner than intended.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.4.0
Had no relation to weapon procs, and indeed, that patch note isn't even about that bug.
Blizzard's solution to the multi WF was to put a 3second cooldown on it. As of 1.4, WF was definitely still able to proc weapon procs; I remember using it with Jek'lik's Crusher with it.
Also, for what it's worth, I was never able to reproduce WF proccing itself in vanilla despite a significant amount of time spent testing it, and I still am not sure that that wasn't just a myth based on the 'next auto happens instantly' bug fixed in 1.4. What I believe actually was happening was that you got your normal auto, WF proc, next auto, and Stormstrike all happening at once, and each of the two autos and Stormstrike could proc WF. Since you're using a 2-hander, if all three of them proc WF, your target dies, and so it was impossible to prove what actually was happening.
Well, I have never played a Shaman ever so I was just going off of what was shown in the video and the associated 1.4 patch notes - otherwise, in a previous thread multiple other people said that Windfury wouldnt generate weapon procs either so take it as you will.
Anywho, as far as absolute top DPS that a Melee Hunter and their pet could generate on their own:
Keftenk - Today at 6:29 PM
I think thats about as high as i can take it without using Annihilator and CoR on the target
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/426190623461212170/unknown.png
Hunter - 405.6
Wind Serpent - 241.6
Total - 647.2 DPSNow let's post this gem from earlier in this thread and laugh some more...
A BM hunter with NF would do more than 1.1k dps and would be a much higher NF uptime. So would a fury war with a NF. I dont care about your Screen shot of trash dps being carried.
You are giving the average player false hope.
Bottom line despite the dramatic reenactments, melee hunter pulling 400 dps and keeping NF uptime of 40ish% means that melee hunter is the optimal play choice for raids pushing meters. That isn't even factoring pet dps either so melee is a substantial boost over conventional ranged hunters. Not the best news for the class probably but most guilds won't care probably so the meta will most likely be safe enough.
Thanks to Keftenk for his thorough testing of this scenario!
Well, I have never played a Shaman ever so I was just going off of what was shown in the video and the associated 1.4 patch notes - otherwise, in a previous thread multiple other people said that Windfury wouldnt generate weapon procs either so take it as you will.
Yeah, I've seen a lot of people saying it, but never any source. I was just hoping you had one.
I don't have a way to conclusively disprove it, so I can't go into threads and call them wrong, but until someone proves it I don't believe them either. So I get to continue to exist in my state of 'it annoys me every time someone says it but I can't reasonably tell them to stop saying it' :p
But I digress - in a perfect world, the optimal setup to maintain close to 100% nightfall proc uptime is this:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Prot Warrior***
Did you just imply ret paladins are anything but the best?
BLASPHEMY!!!!
03/21/2018 09:38 PMPosted by
Avarond
But I digress - in a perfect world, the optimal setup to maintain close to 100% nightfall proc uptime is this:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Prot Warrior***
Did you just imply ret paladins are anything but the best?
BLASPHEMY!!!!
Well, it's a trade off given the fact that the Melee Hunter will have higher proc uptime by about 5-10% on average but their individual DPS caps out at 650 DPS with the absolute best possible gear available (this includes their Pet's DPS as well)
Whereas, a Retribution Paladin will have much higher solo DPS given the same access to BiS forever gear and setup as can be seen below:
Exodia the Forbidden Onehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr6rQJbe_5hZ7zgZZKuHDSQ