Nightfall - Melee Hunter vs Ret Paladin

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
41
03/17/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Zones
Theloris again -.-

Well have fun getting your eyes opened.


what are you even trying to say with this comment?

Hate on me all you want but I'm not the one doing the testing - Keftenk is - and he is providing ACTUAL DATA to show the difference between the classes/specs that could use Nightfall, their uptime on the debuff and what their individual vs total raid DPS contributions would be in a typical raid setup.
1 Like
42
Theloras I would be happy to raid with you and what ever wonky build you're running. The only thing I care about is players who know the encounters and how to play in a constructive and helpful way. DPS values are not that important in Vanilla, nor will they be in Classic. Its just an entirely different game from the Modern game.

Funny how people now days forget how laid back Vanilla raiding was; they also tend to forget how critical the extremely limited boss mechanics actually were tho too.

Making sure you did not make a mistake while putting out what is suboptimal DPS is better than fantastic DPS when you're alive but getting killed and wiping the raid.
43
It's always funny to me how conversations devolve into presumptions about some kind of agenda. This testing is being conducted to determine optimal nightfall uptime as well as optimal raid dps contribution between 4 different classes. This thread is not lol Ret pallys deserve a raid spot.

This thread is about first, is melee hunter legitimately a thing when using nightfall as compared to a standard hunter? If so then is melee hunter an optimal thing as opposed to the hunter's sub par dps especially in end game.

Additionally what is the nightfall uptime of a ret comparatively? When compared to a hunter or any other DPS, does Ret with nightfall become viable or even optimal given the raid slot that they take?

To fully know these questions we look at all four classes/specs that use or would use nightfall and see the total differences. Results so far are that prot, hunter, and pally all have acceptable uptime.

Shaman has horrible uptime. Additionally for shaman they are an offspec to begin with so that's 2 big strikes against them.

Prots may use it and they may have decent uptime but it's only useful if they are not tanking. So one strike against them. They would probably be better suited as a fury spec tank and would do better dps and we can look to other classes for better total nightfall uptime.

Paladin uptime is great and they do decent dps though they take up a debuff slot (however it is a useful debuff) so they are an interesting option that probably will provide good raid value because of it. Results to be determined. The strike against them is that you will always have 2 hunters in raid. If they decide to take the noble route and become melee hunters to most benefit the raid a 3rd nightfaller is not optimal. If they aren't or don't have to play that role then this could work.

Hunter uptime is great and presuming their dps is acceptable as melee while still having good uptime then they could very well be the optimal raid dps choice for the class given that they are one of the lowest dps classes. Results to be tallied to see the value.
1 Like
44
Interesting thread. Shame to see that Shaman uptime is trash seeing as that's one of the few niches Enhancement could fulfill in a raid. At least PVP is a bit more kind to them when they've got good gear (and RNG) to work with, which is all I'll be doing with mine anyways.
45
03/17/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Iconöclast
Interesting thread. Shame to see that Shaman uptime is trash seeing as that's one of the few niches Enhancement could fulfill in a raid. At least PVP is a bit more kind to them when they've got good gear (and RNG) to work with, which is all I'll be doing with mine anyways.


Yes, I was personally quite surprised at how bad they were for their Nightfall proc uptime in the test results but then I remembered that Blizzard specifically nerfed Windfury in Vanilla so that the bonus swings would no longer generate weapon procs.

With that huge nerf and their only other alternatives being auto-attack and Stromstrike, that's where you get the low proc uptime results.
46
03/17/2018 01:06 PMPosted by GildaA9649
Theloras I would be happy to raid with you and what ever wonky build you're running. The only thing I care about is players who know the encounters and how to play in a constructive and helpful way. DPS values are not that important in Vanilla, nor will they be in Classic. Its just an entirely different game from the Modern game.

Funny how people now days forget how laid back Vanilla raiding was; they also tend to forget how critical the extremely limited boss mechanics actually were tho too.

Making sure you did not make a mistake while putting out what is suboptimal DPS is better than fantastic DPS when you're alive but getting killed and wiping the raid.


#FullDisclosure

Sometimes I too have ben guilty of being bad in raids and not paying attention, but that usually only happens after I'm 5+ beers in...

:P
47
more info on Warriors to share:

Keftenk - Today at 4:20 PM
Alright, going to be done for now since I'm beginning to get frustrated. I'm seeing about a ~6.21% change between hour long tests with Warrior. I have 3 different hour long tests with the exact same setup and buffs. The average differences is slightly over 6% on upkeep.

Why's that frustrating? 6% is almost a 100dps difference with 10k spell dps in the raid. So, it's all over the place with inconsistency. Maybe that's simply the nature of it though? I'm fighting with RNG after all. I was hoping it would be a bit smaller, ~3%.

Maybe we just need to look at NF more of a generalization of upkeep to Haste:Crit:Instant Attacks?

Anyways, following (1-(1-0,49)^3) formula, a raid with 3 Troll Warriors swinging NF at this rate would see a 0.867349 or 86.73% upkeep. Increasing a raid-pool of 10,000 spell DPS by 1300.95 or 433.65dps per NF wielder.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png

Keftenk - Today at 4:28 PM
Through all these tests though diminishing returns hits the raid hard after the 3rd Nightfall user. Yet, even a 4th NF would still effectively add something like ~350dps. It'll all just depend on who it falls to swing the axe.
unless prot just can't handle good upkeep times, im going to assume you'll never want a Fury swinging due to their insanely high DPS ceiling

Theloras - Today at 4:33 PM
yes I agree 100%
having a Fury Warrior using Nightfall effectively cuts them off at the knees for their own personal DPS
keep in mind as well though
that the Prot Warrior will weapon twist in and out
with Annihilator and Nightfall
so maybe do a test showcasing both weapons being utilized
and extrapolate both the boost to caster DPS via nightfall
and the boost to melee DPS by annihilator
granted annihilator is MUCH easier to get up to 3 stacks right away
and has a 45 sec duration
but having the Prot OT weave both weapons allows them to cover both bases
48
03/17/2018 04:14 PMPosted by Theloras
Sometimes I too have ben guilty of being bad in raids and not paying attention, but that usually only happens after I'm 5+ beers in...


When were all drinking its all good, after all isn't that what games are for? I always PVP with a few down the hatch, and I am laughing my rear off the whole time.
49
03/17/2018 04:21 PMPosted by Theloras
Maybe we just need to look at NF more of a generalization of upkeep to Haste:Crit:Instant Attacks?


Consider this approach to your testing.

Run a weapon swap macro; once the proc goes off you swap weapons. Then 1 auto swing, then swap back.

There is potential for the weapon to have some kind of internal proc bias toward first swings. This I found to be true with several things in Vanilla, but never actually checked or ran Nightfall.

Its worth a shot, but also you guys need to consider that the private server code is 100% guess work with stuff like that; and 100% of those proc's are handled server side not the client side.

the only thing the client does in our situation is tell the server you have chosen to equip XXXXXX weapon, and then the client displays that weapon, proper animations, sounds, and such.

Your PC does all the heavy lifting regarding graphics, but the crit strikes, misses, hits, proc's, etc; these are 100% handled server side.

Your client and the server talk back and forth regarding your position on the map, and where NPC's and other players are.

So you need to consider that all your testing while awesome work, could be in vain because the private server may very well handle the proc chance differently than the real servers did.

This can be taken case for just about everything private server side; I know that things are fun there, but they do not feel quite right. Something has always been "off" about them.
50
If you where to take all the consumes and bull !@#$ you are pumping into a non-raid spec like ret and put it into a BM hunter with just as gear as you it will have a higher uptime and higher overall damage.

plz link your patchwerk dps. i don't care about thaddius.

https://classicdb.ch/?talent#cx0GzgxRtZIbbVoh

The pet damage alone is probably not far from your ret damage and the hunter mongoose and RS will make the hunter surpass you. It will ALSO have a higher uptime on the boss. You are a gimp compared to a orc or troll hunter with NF.

Ret is = or less than a enhance shaman for NF. Your guild is better off having off tanks use it and just bringing a real dps than having you in the raid.

You are worse than esfand. Stop showing damage meters for stupid %^-*.
51
03/18/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Prollygutted
If you where to take all the consumes and bull !@#$ you are pumping into a non-raid spec like ret and put it into a BM hunter with just as gear as you it will have a higher uptime and higher overall damage.

plz link your patchwerk dps. i don't care about thaddius.

https://classicdb.ch/?talent#cx0GzgxRtZIbbVoh

The pet damage alone is probably not far from your ret damage and the hunter mongoose and RS will make the hunter surpass you. It will ALSO have a higher uptime on the boss. You are a gimp compared to a orc or troll hunter with NF.

Ret is = or less than a enhance shaman for NF. Your guild is better off having off tanks use it and just bringing a real dps than having you in the raid.

You are worse than esfand. Stop showing damage meters for stupid %^-*.


you do realize that you are only making yourself look even more deluded by posting $hit like this right?

but if you absolutely MUST see Patchwerk data, then here is our PW kill from last night and me swinging Nightfall - keep in mind we did NOT have world buffs last night:

1 Bigpapi (270180) 928.1/s 6.8%
2 Laserd (262637) 902.2/s 6.6%
3 Domzori (234825) 806.7/s 5.9%
4 Donnita (232597) 799/s 5.9%
5 Kazic (210258) 722.3/s 5.3%
6 Zaethul (191290) 657.1/s 4.8%
7 Choob (188823) 648.6/s 4.8%
8 Sareene (181395) 623.1/s 4.6%
9 Grimhaze (171441) 588.9/s 4.3%
10 Xeonas (169520) 582.3/s 4.3%
11 Imagurlirl (165723) 569.3/s 4.2%
12 Lxe (157604) 541.4/s 4.0%
13 Smiter (156778) 538.6/s 3.9%***
14 Bounceit (154217) 529.8/s 3.9%
15 Ohotdarn (148278) 509.4/s 3.7%
16 Nigly (146584) 503.5/s 3.7%
17 Dozsha (138324) 475.2/s 3.5%
18 Theoloras (137765) 473.3/s 3.5%***
19 Trinna (136496) 468.9/s 3.4%
20 Emptyshadow (114872) 394.6/s 2.9%
21 Waylander (114219) 392.4/s 2.9%
22 Jenjenjenny (97946) 336.5/s 2.5%
23 Alohaas (69472) 238.7/s 1.8%
24 Garthonnix (60067) 206.3/s 1.5%
25 Knyght (51742) 177.7/s
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?data=KAXVAQZSHA3GKTTBOJZEQ3RQKJTGEZ3QKNZHSYZYPBRHKSTIKR3XSN2QMQ4DI6LEJ5XXGMCYIEYGGZSCK5BHE3TNGRWTE6BTKFGVM22CJYZG42D2GA4WK6RZME3FA3BUIYVVENDNOMYW6VTWNVITC5LBNR2EYSCPKMZWKVZXOFBGY6TZPFBW2M2DIVYFGM2MIE3DKNTKONDTI3RXIU2TA3KMIVMWI32ZGJCG4QTLMNDFCNRUMVJUOS2LGA3UQZ3SPFSHCNBYIY4XEU2SNM6Q

***both Smiter and I are Retribution although he uses Claymore of Unholy Might and Seal of Command***

Total Caster DPS = 5694.9 not counting Smiter and I

Total Magic DPS = 5694.9 + 288.2 + 337 = 6320.1 with Smiter and I

Total Overall with Melee = 6320.1 + 370.7 = 6690.8 (ie: Instant Poison, MSA proc...)

TOTAL COMBINED MAGIC DPS = 6690.8

Average Nightfall uptime of say 40% = 2676.32 x 15% debuff = 401.448

My total raid DPS contribution = 473.3 + 401.448 = 874.748

Theoloras = 874.75 DPS

YEA MR. WHITE...MATH!!!!
52
More test results with Warriors Fury vs Prot OT with Nightfall:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425001731001155594/unknown.png
53
Not to take a big steaming dump on your thread, but I feel things like this goes against the spirit of Vanilla, at least speaking from my own limited experience of playing through most of Vanilla, from MC, Ony, Azure/Kazzak, BWL, ZG, dragons, and AQ.

We were raiding MC so early in vanilla's life that we were in all mostly greens.

Hunters used ranged weapons. We didn't care about NF proc, we just went in there, melted faces, kicked !@# and chewed bubble gum!
I would never ask a hunter to stand there and apply the debuff..what kind of fun is that?! Telling the other warriors to use one if they're not tanking would be a lot more acceptable.

If you guys really want to min/max I suggest you get into mythic raiding/dungeons in live.
54
Further extrapolation can be seen here in analyzing Coalition's Patchwerk kill from a month ago for real world DPS numbers from the top raiding guild on Anathema before they folded a few weeks ago IF I WERE IN THE RAID SWINGING NIGHTFALL FOR THEM:

1 Squizzie (275457) 1591.3/s 6.9%
2 Prefox (203365) 1174.8/s 5.1%
3 Tidbit (196186) 1133.4/s 4.9%
4 Fearless (186676) 1078.4/s 4.7%
5 Juddyy (184804) 1067.6/s 4.6%
6 Diggens (182565) 1054.7/s 4.6%
7 Maitozo (182185) 1052.5/s 4.6%
8 Slicy (181899) 1050.8/s 4.6%
9 Leeloo (181386) 1047.9/s 4.5%
10 Masttersnake (177575) 1025.8/s 4.4%
11 Gjinel (171554) 991.1/s 4.3%
12 Uppislol (170323) 984/s 4.3%
13 Ayeri (164881) 952.5/s 4.1%
14 Scoomalooma (162692) 939.9/s 4.1%
15 Tiburtius (154534) 892.7/s 3.9%
16 Jlow (151988) 878/s 3.8%
17 Cheery (145651) 841.4/s 3.6%
18 Yuuki (145569) 840.9/s 3.6%
19 Shiverino (143748) 830.4/s 3.6%
20 Etnies (131492) 759.6/s 3.3%
21 Voxil (124267) 717.9/s 3.1%
22 Fyrwind (101237) 584.8/s 2.5%
23 Funknasty (93736) 541.5/s 2.3%
24 Vipzi (62470) 360.9/s 1.6%
25 Cykeli (42204) 243.8/s 1.1%
26 Celyz (38492) 222.4/s 1.0%
27 Nyo (37734) 218/s

https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?data=JQYWMMKQOI2FIK3EMRHEW5TWMI3XM6LFOBBDSMKBJ5MSWUTHLBQXU3LGLI4EY2CGHEZE2WJSJRREGM3QKA3FSTKOPJJWG42CJRTTIR3YMVGTQTBRMNCDARCUPI3WMVLIGZLGE43DGJUXEQLJJE3UWVSJOBJXISLNJVEGWQSIPJLTKUKENNVTCUJTOZEFEZTWMYZDC43SHFREC6JSIE4UKQ3UGJSEK4CQMZ3UE2KYN5EVC4DHLEZVU4CVGRDCW3KPF5TTQSJWJFYDAUDWMJAU6Z2PIJLHG23LNVQVC6LHMU2E6K3EFNYA

Total Caster DPS = 10796.5

Total Magic DPS = 10796.5 + 337 = 11133.5 with my magical dmg

Total Overall with Melee = 11133.5 + 177.3 = 11310.8 (ie: Sapper, TF proc...)

TOTAL COMBINED MAGIC DPS = 11310.8

Average Nightfall uptime of say 40% = 4524.32 x 15% debuff = 678.648

My total raid DPS contribution = 473.3 + 678.648 = 1151.948

Theoloras = 1151.95 DPS
55
03/18/2018 02:29 PMPosted by Mordegast
Not to take a big steaming dump on your thread, but I feel things like this goes against the spirit of Vanilla, at least speaking from my own limited experience of playing through most of Vanilla, from MC, Ony, Azure/Kazzak, BWL, ZG, dragons, and AQ.

We were raiding MC so early in vanilla's life that we were in all mostly greens.

Hunters used ranged weapons. We didn't care about NF proc, we just went in there, melted faces, kicked !@# and chewed bubble gum!
I would never ask a hunter to stand there and apply the debuff..what kind of fun is that?! Telling the other warriors to use one if they're not tanking would be a lot more acceptable.

If you guys really want to min/max I suggest you get into mythic raiding/dungeons in live.


it's all good and I respect your position - all of this comes from the enjoyment and fun of theorycrafting ideas as opposed to filling the cookie cutter niche that is retail wow now

think of it this way - in vanilla you are free to experiment, try new things and colour outside the lines

hybrids are just that hybrids - yes, we can fulfill the primary role of being healbots vry well - but that is not the end all be all of what we are capable of :)
56
03/18/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Prollygutted
BM hunter


And you wouldn't be invited because you don't have TrueShot Aura.
1 Like
57
03/19/2018 02:47 AMPosted by Undert8332A2
03/18/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Prollygutted
BM hunter


And you wouldn't be invited because you don't have TrueShot Aura.


BOOM headshot!
1 Like
58
More info on Hunters:

Keftenk - Today at 9:54 AM
I redid Hunter Troll. I took a more serious crack at a gear-list for Melee Hunter. I'm quite positive it's not optimal, but stat weighting Melee Hunter is going to be a job for someone else, not me. Anyways, I was more curious about the different specs in terms of personal DPS to NF upkeep.

The differences are marginal. The deep Survival spec receives +3% Crit and +15% AGI while the deep Beast Mastery spec receives +30% Pet Haste and Beastial Wrath, which is +50% Pet damage.

The personal DPS numbers are virtually the same. In these hour long tests you will see that Survival did beat Beast Mastery by less than 3dps. So, make it what you will. I will note that Beast Mastery has better burst potential due to Beastial Wrath. I'd assume that in shorter fights Beast Mastery will actually out perform Survival.

What does that mean? Without more indepth testing, not a whole lot. Beast Mastery for Melee Hunter is probably best to use in Blackwing Lair and Molten Core since there isn't a single fight outside of Nefarian that lasts longer than 60-seconds. Unless something happens of course.

Survival will scale better with a more optimal gear list. So, please don't take anything as absolute.

As for the NF upkeep breakdowns. Again, I'm seeing the disparity between hour long tests. Between ALL of my Hunter tests, the margin of error is 3.66% (average), which is very different than the Warrior's 6.21%. That may be due to the sheer amount of Hunter tests I have completed in 2 weeks opposed to a handful or so Warrior tests.

Side note: I'm starting to think that Hand of Justice is a wasted trinket slot, even for NF upkeep.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425336341694251010/unknown.png
59
If you play on a private server or have your own test server repack, you can use these macros to track total Nightfall proc uptime - courtesy of Ayeri:

/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff("target",i); if texture and texture == "Interface\Icons\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace" then NfCount = NfCount + 1 DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end

/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0

the second one you have to hit it before
otherwise it won't work
and to stop the spam once you're done

PS you also need SuperMacro in order for it to work

Ayeri - Today at 11:43 AM
so, hit the 2nd macro first
then the big one
Ayeri - Today at 11:44 AM
then to stop all the stuff, hit the 2nd again
Keftenk - Today at 11:44 AM
DONT HIT THE BIG ONE TWICE OR THREE TIMES
it'll count faster
60
Not surprised to see this brought up by Theloras. But ya if your alliance just have your tanks who aren't tanking anything just use Nightfall. Anything else is just a waste.