<span class="truncated">...</span>
what are you talking about, I have the highest NF uptime other than the Melee Hunter...
Seal/Judgement of Righteousness trigger weapon/enchant/trinket procs.
oh and...
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396507528630108161/415326422903685120/double_ret_deeps_thaddius.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600214667034624/417261119791562762/thad_no_world_buffs.jpg
Fury would be better off going dual wield and focusing/boosting their own personal DPS in the process - you give Nightfall/Annihilator to the Off Tanks.
A BM hunter with NF would do more than 1.1k dps and would be a much higher NF uptime. So would a fury war with a NF. I dont care about your Screen shot of trash dps being carried.
You are giving the average player false hope.
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL
HAHAHAHAHA
A MELEE HUNTER DOING 1.1K DPS ON THEIR OWN WITH WINGCLIP SPAM?!?!?!?!?
OK NOW I KNOW YOU ARE OUT OF OUYR FREAKIN MIND BRO!!!!!!
I MEAN WOW AND PEOPLE SAY THAT I TELL TALES...
2 Likes
[quote]
A BM hunter with NF would do more than 1.1k dps and would be a much higher NF uptime. So would a fury war with a NF. I dont care about your Screen shot of trash dps being carried.
You are giving the average player false hope.
Wow you're the one quoting false hopes. Hunters are not that strong with dps. From a min maxing standpoint the ugly truth is hunters are only in raids because of tranq shot. Nightfall is an ability to boost their already bad dps. I would expect that a ret would provide more dps because they actually are a better dps class than hunter.
From a min Maxing standpoint whichi is the same thing this dude is doing a hunter would be a better option.
I am aware of how raiding works in vanilla and the raid structure. This whole thing is a joke. You can do what you want in vanilla and a bunch of crazy !@#$ "works". No one will take you seriously. If i need a melee dps for my current content ZG run im not taking a ret, enhance, ele, moonkin, feral cat, arms.
You can raid as whatver you want, as long as you get a spot. Getting the spot is part of the fight, convincing people to give you gear that is better given to someone who isn't playing a joke is the other part. No one is going to allow ret to have the same loot standards as something that is actually beneficial.
In vanilla loot council is usually used for real raiding guilds because giving certain people gear is how you kill certain bosses in good time. Retail players are going to be hit with a wall of realization in vanilla.
1 Like
...
A BM hunter with NF would do more than 1.1k dps and would be a much higher NF uptime. So would a fury war with a NF. I dont care about your Screen shot of trash dps being carried.
You are giving the average player false hope.
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL
HAHAHAHAHA
A MELEE HUNTER DOING 1.1K DPS ON THEIR OWN WITH WINGCLIP SPAM?!?!?!?!?
OK NOW I KNOW YOU ARE OUT OF OUYR FREAKIN MIND BRO!!!!!!
I MEAN WOW AND PEOPLE SAY THAT I TELL TALES...
You are playing with trash that dies during the fight on thaddius while min maxing to the highest ability from what i see with gear that should have been given to someone who would make better use of it.
Ret
Doesn't
Raid
<span class="truncated">...</span>
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL
HAHAHAHAHA
A MELEE HUNTER DOING 1.1K DPS ON THEIR OWN WITH WINGCLIP SPAM?!?!?!?!?
OK NOW I KNOW YOU ARE OUT OF OUYR FREAKIN MIND BRO!!!!!!
I MEAN WOW AND PEOPLE SAY THAT I TELL TALES...
You are playing with trash that dies during the fight on thaddius while min maxing to the highest ability from what i see with gear that should have been given to someone who would make better use of it.
Ret
Doesn't
Raid
^^^From the guy that said a Melee Hunter would hit 1.1K DPS on their own^^^
- edit -
So I copy/pasted your original "Melee Hunters can do 1.1K DPS" post in my guild's discord and one of my guildies replied:
Papi - Today at 5:56 PM
maybe at lvl 90 lol
Theloras - Today at 5:56 PM
hahaha
id say level 100
but i didnt want to be mean
lol
3 Likes
Hunters are not that strong with dps.
Can indeed confirm. But what we lack in raw DPS, we make up for in actual damage on the boss because with range attack we are always hitting the boss unless its impossible to do so. Melee classes typically cannot make contact on all fights 100% of the time, so while they do better raw DPS, their actual figures of total damage dealt are usually lower.
There are fights where melee outrun us, such as patchy, but not every fight is patchwork, so hunters are usually on top of the total damage dealt even with lower raw DPS figures.
From a min Maxing standpoint
Just a curiosity, but who actually cares about min-maxing in Vanilla content now days? Its not like were going to see any world firsts; all that has been done 13 some odd years ago.
Clearing the content if that's what you're into will be fine. Does it actually matter who's in your raid as long as they're not making mistakes in turn killing the raid?
1 Like
The reason why shaman is the best class for this and you can debate against me all you want its fact. With fury at 100% uptime with crit cap and hit cap the dps they bring with the proc is huge. If your hunter is doing bad damage and isnt higher than 6th your hunter is bad. That doesnt make melee hunter good.
Theorycraft all you want. While people were playing regular wow and spamming wall of NO people were already testing this years ago... Is hunter the most uptime? Sure i dont debate that. But bringing a hunter to JUST wingclip spam for the proc is dumb af when you can bring an enhance with improved windfury for the melee AND buff caster dps. If your marks hunter is 2 to 3% higher than the hunter spamming wingclip your marks hunters are bad and clipping autoshots or something. Ret for alliance...enhance shaman for horde.
2 Likes
The reason why shaman is the best class for this and you can debate against me all you want its fact. With fury at 100% uptime with crit cap and hit cap the dps they bring with the proc is huge. If your hunter is doing bad damage and isnt higher than 6th your hunter is bad. That doesnt make melee hunter good.
Theorycraft all you want. While people were playing regular wow and spamming wall of NO people were already testing this years ago... Is hunter the most uptime? Sure i dont debate that. But bringing a hunter to JUST wingclip spam for the proc is dumb af when you can bring an enhance with improved windfury for the melee AND buff caster dps. If your marks hunter is 2 to 3% higher than the hunter spamming wingclip your marks hunters are bad and clipping autoshots or something. Ret for alliance...enhance shaman for horde.
Enhance uptime is terrible. Ive killed bosses in ZG with it proccing like twice max.
Hunter has the highest uptime and thats all that matters. NF doesn't mean !@#$ if its not on the boss. They changed the speed from 2.9->3.5 for naxx too iirc. Further hurting the auto-attack NF meme.
BM hunter>Warrior>>>>>> Enhance>Ret.
These idiot ret advocates should be ignored.
The reason why shaman is the best class for this and you can debate against me all you want its fact. With fury at 100% uptime with crit cap and hit cap the dps they bring with the proc is huge. If your hunter is doing bad damage and isnt higher than 6th your hunter is bad. That doesnt make melee hunter good.
Theorycraft all you want. While people were playing regular wow and spamming wall of NO people were already testing this years ago... Is hunter the most uptime? Sure i dont debate that. But bringing a hunter to JUST wingclip spam for the proc is dumb af when you can bring an enhance with improved windfury for the melee AND buff caster dps. If your marks hunter is 2 to 3% higher than the hunter spamming wingclip your marks hunters are bad and clipping autoshots or something. Ret for alliance...enhance shaman for horde.
Enhance uptime is terrible. Ive killed bosses in ZG with it proccing like twice max.
Hunter has the highest uptime and thats all that matters. NF doesn't mean !@#$ if its not on the boss. They changed the speed from 2.9->3.5 for naxx too iirc. Further hurting the auto-attack NF meme.
BM hunter>Warrior>>>>>> Enhance>Ret.
These idiot ret advocates should be ignored.
stop being a retard with statements like this
you literally said a melee hunter would do 1.1K DPS on their own...
that makes you deluded on a level never before seen by human eyes!
1 Like
Enhance uptime is terrible. Ive killed bosses in ZG with it proccing like twice max.
Hunter has the highest uptime and thats all that matters. NF doesn't mean !@#$ if its not on the boss. They changed the speed from 2.9->3.5 for naxx too iirc. Further hurting the auto-attack NF meme.
BM hunter>Warrior>>>>>> Enhance>Ret.
These idiot ret advocates should be ignored.
Who actually cares tho, if you have a raid slot filled with a dependable player who's got a positive attitude and does his job and doesn't make mistakes, that's all I care about.
Most of the bosses in the old vanilla don't really require a check of a lot of DPS, so I'm the end it's just better to have a player who's alive, doing his job, and not making a mess.
You're acting like these raids can't be cleared unless everyone is doing 1000 DPS, when the reality of Naxxramas is more like ~350DPS on the average.
1 Like
I still think the parses need to be ran again.
The test should not be "i didn't do my instant attacks because NF was already up, only when it fell off".
The goal is to try to refresh the debuff before it falls off. Since Rank 1s can be tossed into the rotations if mana becomes an issue, there should be no breaks in the parse of attempting to consume as many GCDs as possible.
You'll find the % uptimes will be even higher.
To the person wondering if the damage boost is worth it, take Patchwerk for example. 12 ranged dps that are geared/flasked can push 800-1,000 DPS without nightfall. Let's just take the bottom number as the average.
12x800 = 9,600
9,600*.15 = 1,440
47.5% uptime = 684 dps contributions from the proc alone. + whatever the person spamming can push dps wise as well.
KeK at the person worried about ZG specs. Bro, you'll take warm bodies to ZG after people get their rep. Wanna be min-max picky after that, you'll be missing some lockouts. Off specs do really well in 20 mans BTW, as utility matters a lot.
Even PVP specced prep rogues are really valuable to stun lock. You'll take the boomkin just for MotW and he can sleep + root CC a lot of the instance trash (2 CCs from 1 person) Hakkar is a threat capped fight anyways. Gotta bring those top DPS in to tell them not to DPS, right?
1 Like
I still think the parses need to be ran again.
The test should not be "i didn't do my instant attacks because NF was already up, only when it fell off".
The goal is to try to refresh the debuff before it falls off. Since Rank 1s can be tossed into the rotations if mana becomes an issue, there should be no breaks in the parse of attempting to consume as many GCDs as possible.
You'll find the % uptimes will be even higher.
To the person wondering if the damage boost is worth it, take Patchwerk for example. 12 ranged dps that are geared/flasked can push 800-1,000 DPS without nightfall. Let's just take the bottom number as the average.
12x800 = 9,600
9,600*.15 = 1,440
47.5% uptime = 684 dps contributions from the proc alone. + whatever the person spamming can push dps wise as well.
KeK at the person worried about ZG specs. Bro, you'll take warm bodies to ZG after people get their rep. Wanna be min-max picky after that, you'll be missing some lockouts. Off specs do really well in 20 mans BTW, as utility matters a lot.
Even PVP specced prep rogues are really valuable to stun lock. You'll take the boomkin just for MotW and he can sleep + root CC a lot of the instance trash (2 CCs from 1 person) Hakkar is a threat capped fight anyways. Gotta bring those top DPS in to tell them not to DPS, right?
But Undertanker...
I wanna do 1.1K personal DPS as a Melee Hunter AND have top Nightfall proc uptime at the same time!!!
1 Like
I wanna do 1.1K DPS as a Melee Hunter AND have top Nightfall proc uptime at the same time!!!
You mean making up fake dps numbers for a class isn't good for proving a point?
Every weapon is a Hunter weapon Kappa.
I played a hunter in retail vanilla. A lot of people are in for a rude awakening coming to hunters. MC/BWL the damage was great...problem is you don't scale. While everyone else improves with quality gear hunters get an extremely minor improvement compared to dps classes.
On retail, around the end of vanilla the other hunters and I were just trying to not get beat by shadow priest, lol. Around AQ40/Naxx hunters are support and no longer meaningful dps. You tranq/trap/kite/nightfall etc. You should not pretend to be a pure dps and just pewpew at range.
MC/BWL by all means pewpew if your guild needs the dps. Other classes won't have scaled up and you can be a top contender, but I 100% assure you it doesn't last into meaningful content.
Edit: if shadow priest didn't oom so easily in later content levels they'd leave you in the dust as well. That is what I remember from personal experience and other leading progression hunters back then. Too bad we didn't know about the nightfall spam with rank 1 WC back then. I would rather have been doing that than racing the shadow priest for last place, lol.
1 Like
A BM hunter with NF would do more than 1.1k dps and would be a much higher NF uptime.
Here's a screenshot of the top Hunter DPS on Anathema doing actual ranged DPS:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401138411286822927/424586672613883915/unknown.png
And you still wanna claim that a BM Hunter will pull 1.1K solo DPS while meleeing with Nightfall?
But I digress - here are some test results that you guys can analyze and chew on - Keftenk asked me to put together a gear setup that would provide 8% melee hit and 10% spell hit:
Theloras - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
ok @Keftenk
Helm: Avenger's Crown
Neck: Gem of Trapped Innocents
Shoulder: Avenger's Pauldrons
Back: Cloak of the Necropolis
Chest: Avenger's Breastplate
Wrist: Qiraji Execution Bracers
Hands: Dark Storm Gauntlets
Belt: Girdle of the Mentor
Legs: Avenger's Legguards
Boots: Avenger's Greaves
Finger: Seal of the Damned
Finger: Band of Acuria
Trinket: Neltharion’s Tear
Trinket: Kiss of the Spider
Relic: Libram of Fervor | Libram of Hope (Libram Twist)
Helm: Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer
Neck: Gem of Trapped Innocents
Shoulder: Rime Covered Mantle
Back: Cloak of the Necropolis
Chest: Bloodvine Vest
Wrist: Qiraji Execution Bracers
Hands: Gauntlets of Annihilation
Belt: Angelista's Grasp
Legs: Bloodvine Leggings
Boots: Bloodvine Boots
Finger: Seal of the Damned
Finger: Band of Acuria
Trinket: Neltharion’s Tear
Trinket: Kiss of the Spider
Relic: Libram of Fervor | Libram of Hope (Libram Twist)(edited)
the first gear list is something that is within the realm of possibility
but caps out at 8% melee hit and 5% spell hit(edited)
the second is pushing it lol
but the second list does meet your criteria for 8% melee hit and 10% spell hit
race doesnt matter since human weapon racial is for mace/sword
and Nightfall is an Axe so go to town with DORF MASTER RACE!
- CAVEAT -
with your test server are you able to assign 300 Tailoring to the Paladin in order to gain the +2% spell crit bonus from the Bloodvine set?
Taladril - Today at 12:22 AM
Yeah you can set profs
Keftenk - Today at 7:30 AM
mother @#$%, i keep inserting the wrong table
Here are the 'DPS' results for a Paladin. As we can see by these tests, Spell Hit is quite valuable. Increasing the upkeep time by more than 10% which I suppose makes sense when you're casting so many Judgements.
What wasn't active in this DPS test? Holy Water, Exorcism, Power Infusion, Curse of Recklessness, and Annihilator, which undoubtedly will increase DPS, but it won't double these values by any means.
All abilities were spammed on cool down for these tests.
Be aware that with a 10% Vengeance upkeep versus the Iron Counterweight test that would translate into even greater gains. If your casters are doing a collective 10,000dps in a fight. 1% is going to be a 15dps increase and in this instance 1.33% is going to be a 19.95dps increase. You're pressing hard to write a narrative that the Fiery setup is ideal when it's this close.
Let's keep in mind though that there are fluctuations in these results as we saw it in the no Spell Hit tests earlier yesterday. So, it's hard to say that Fiery Weapon enchant WON'T produce the same numbers as Iron Counterweight. What that +/- disparity is between the two, perhaps 3%? 5%? I'm not sure . It's the issue with RNG items.
I'm going out on a limb here, but to maximize Retribution upkeep while producing the largest personal DPS increase it might be worth weighting stats specifically to this cause. Maybe 8% Spell Hit is more ideal than 10%? It's just something to think about.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424575289759105034/unknown.png
Nihla - Today at 7:31 AM
you are exhausted...you need more mp5
Keftenk - Today at 7:55 AM
Well...when you look at this for 4hrs.... it gets to you.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424581628321464331/unknown.png
Taladril - Today at 8:26 AM
Man that is one sexy looking ret set
But that is really telling. So ret does have excellent uptime but you have to tailor the concept to needing that hit to maximize it. Totally makes sense otherwise what was the point of all of those proc chances if a bunch miss. Excellent job @Keftenk
Forgot to post this from yesterday as well - lol @ Enhancement Nightfall uptime:
Keftenk - Yesterday at 6:05 PM
please tell me i forgot some melee ability other than Stormstrike that Enhancement Shaman gets in vanilla that i dont know about...
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424372697275957249/unknown.png
Keftenk - Today at 10:22 AM
This was Troll Hunter spamming abilities for dps upkeep oppose to NF upkeep.
176.6dps from pet
so 563.15dps total
im going to hypothesize that warrior, hunter, paladin are all relatively close to upkeep times. what's an actuality here is Shaman shouldnt be swinging it at all, ever. Unless you have no Warriors and/or Hunters in the raid lol
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424618619368898561/unknown.png
Keftenk - Today at 11:55 AM
oh, btw did redid warrior but with absolute bix Naxx list (at least close i think), with sunderx5 and FF up.
789.05dps (56.6dps came from Deep Wounds)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424641828986290186/unknown.png
Theloris again -.-
Well have fun getting your eyes opened.