Right? There was a Discord and i wasn’t invited?! I want the tea too lmao!
https: //discord . gg/HjYm3a
Don’t tell the Forum Gestapo. I don’t have enough social credits to post links.
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I’m calling the Sentinels
I don’t disagree with Kyalin - except for the gas metaphor, as it wasn’t actually apt. Kyalin isn’t recommending people put gas in their car. Kyalin is recommending people not buy a car that isn’t fuel efficient. Though I more focus on the thread title being “People, don’t buy this car.”
Beyond that, Kyalin has fair philosophical standards. But ones that will not have any impact on anything. Kyalin can be disappointed. But that will have no more affect on making things better than Kyalin unsubscribing has.
Overall, I’m more interested to Kyalin’s response to this post than any other: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/night-elf-fans-dont-buy/382514/150
Or of course you could continue your bickering about Discord channels.
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What exactly is wrong with this? Just to stick with the established metaphor. Why would you object to people being informed to not buy a car that is inefficient with it’s fuel? Why would you object to people suggesting, “Hey this product you’re considering purchasing is not going to deliver on the things you value in a product so you should refrain.” ???
Inform people of the fuel efficiency all you want. I have no objection to that. Telling people to not buy a truck when they have things to haul and hybrid trucks don’t exist yet isn’t doing anyone any good.
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Except there are. FFXIV and Guild Wars 2 come to mind as very effective Hybrid Trucks if the job they need done can only be done by a truck. Personally I switched to a Pokemon Shield Convertible Car as of late. Before that my Riot-Mobile was doing just fine.
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No Night Elves in any of those vehicles, though. And buying any one of those does not make buying WoW as well mutually exclusive.
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Depending on what it is you want from Night Elves you can find a suitable substitute to hold you over until the Night Elves are improved upon or, in the far more likely case that they never are because certain people will just accept anything and beg for more, can be used as a way of un-syncing one’s self from a company that has no desire to offer a suitable product in return for your hard earned money.
This edit brought to you by Kyalin:
"Amadis should know a bit better than to effect the sleight of hand he’s doing here. The gas metaphor demonstrates the problems with the is/ought fallacy - and shouldn’t be taken from that context.
This is why I will intentionally use an airplane analogy to reply to the point that Amadis wanted me to reply to.
During 8.1, Blizzard sold a deficient plane. A lot of us justifiably spent a lot of time pointing out the negatives of this plane. One of its engines didn’t work, and the other turned traitor on us and started causing the plane to go backwards, and before you could say “737 Max”, we had a mess on our hands. But the interior of the plane had good comfortable seats and a top of the line entertainment system. My point back then was to say that we shouldn’t let the conversation about the deficient engines completely overshadow our discussion of the plane. They deserved discussion, but it was beginning to sound like because the engines were trash, that we were also saying that the very nice interior was trash, when obviously it wasn’t. That’s important feedback to manage. In summary - when Blizzard does good, we need to give them praise, and when they do bad, we need to call that out. But we have to be careful to ensure that our criticism of the bad elements doesn’t poison their impressions of the good ones.
Now, does that mean that we should buy the plane? No, of course not. The damned thing’s flying backwards - and if we buy that plane, we’re telling Blizzard and the market that we’re just fine with buying backwards-flying planes."
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Certainly can. Yet if Kyalin had moved on from the Night Elves this thread wouldn’t exist in the first place, would it?
I agree with Kyalin on these points. However, I point out again that Kyalin was already unsubscribed before the War of the Thorns event even happened. Kyalin already wasn’t buying the plane. And Blizzard’s response practically was “But we’re a backwards-flying plane company.” And the raiders and pet collectors and rank climbers all said “As long as it flies.” Blizzard will keep making what they want regardless of the number off us that don’t like the direction of the lore.
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did kyalin unsub before the expac even dropped? Just a question I have
Speaking for myself on this one.
So it’s better to just throw in the towel and keep giving them your money? You’re just gonna roll over and tuck your tail in instead of refusing to support them continuing to not give you what you want? That’s an extremely unhealthy mindset to have.
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Nope. If you don’t like what they’re making, I fully support not buying.
I don’t recommend expecting anything different if you check back in later, though. Anyone who stopping buying after Cataclysm and checked back in for the burning of Teldrassil should be able to see that.
We won Darkshore. They gave me what I want. What you or Kyalin might want is not the same as what I want.
Of course, I also wanted 8.3 to be Battlefield: Ashenvale. And I want Teldrassil to be a skybox in Ardenweald. I want Night Elf Paladins and Nar’thalas Ghost customization options for Night Elf players.
But I won’t stop playing since I didn’t/won’t get those things. As long as we get something good out of Shadowlands, such as all the Night Elf souls saved and Tyrande getting some semblance of relief back.
If we don’t get those things, then I’ll likely stop buying as well. And I believe people should make their own decisions based on their interests as well.
Though expecting anything will change if you don’t buy is unfounded.
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Kyalin:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/night-elf-fans-dont-buy/382514/194
"Amadis is speaking as though there’s nothing wrong with them being a backwards-flying-plane company, and my point is: there is. We can see that in BfA’s metacritic score when you compare it with their prior expansions, and you can see it when you examine Blizzard’s monthly active user (MAU) trends over BfA’s course (as I have). To recap those trends, Blizzard has been on a continual losing streak across those franchises over the past couple of years. In the fourth quarter of 2018, they lost 2 million MAUs due primarily to WoW (as in, not mitigated by other franchises, and the contributions to the 2 MM MAU figure coming from other franchises were not significant enough, from an accounting-standards point of view, to be mentioned). You can see the impacts of this with the WoW refugee meme in regards to other MMOs, and broad dissatisfaction being reported in this forum, on reddit, and in comments sections across the internet. They’ve only started to recover MAUs recently due to classic (which is not to be understated, it’s 1 mm MAU net after significant losses from Hearthstone).
With BfA though, the data that we have points out the problem quite obviously. Planes aren’t supposed to fly backwards - and while BfA is deficient in more categories than this one, the poor story, and the deficiencies along the lines I highlighted earlier are among the reasons people have been quitting. I know, many of them have told me so.
As for me, Amadis is correct in pointing out that yes, I do care about this franchise, even if I don’t feel that it meets my standards for purchasing from it right now. I want it to get back to a state where it IS worth the cost of admission. But we’re not getting any closer to that when we’re saying things like “well, it’s fine that the plane is flying backwards because if you squint really hard at the plane, it looks like it’s flying in the correct direction”, or “well, they’ve promised that they are going to build a new set of tail elevators - maybe that will get the plane to go forwards.”. I don’t feel that we should be rewarding failure here. We should instead demand the elements of a good video game and, especially if we are dissatisfied, withhold our purchase until those good elements are provided."
Quick Edit: Kyalin is also extending an offer to join her Discord server. If you’d like to join I’ll post my discord and you can add me then I’ll toss you the server invite. There’s certain people I’d rather not be responsible for giving access to it to.
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This was the case with Warlords of Draenor as well. Now Shadowlands is not as promising looking as Legion was, no. But not buying Shadowlands won’t change the course Blizzard is going in, either.
My point is, though, honestly, you’ve withheld your purchase, and things have only gotten worse. Expecting that your continued withholding of purchase will have any effect is the same as if I expected posting recommendations here would have any affect. Neither really does anything.
I’m afraid I have neither the reaction time nor mental health to handle real time chats like Discord. I can’t keep up, and anxiety gets the better of me.
Fair enough. If you change your mind feel free to hit me up. It’s a pretty slow moving Discord and Kyalin has slowmode turned on for all the chat channels for nelf talk other than the general channel to prevent spammy quick posting.
Edit: Kyalin responded and I didn’t realize.
“The claim here is that our individual actions don’t matter - and while it is fair to say that one person’s decision won’t swing a huge company, it’s not fair to say that the one person’s actions don’t have an incremental action. It’s also not fair to say that the sum of that incremental action doesn’t translate to larger effects. That’s how microeconomics become relevant to macroeconomics. Now if we’re at risk that he might feel personally attacked for a decision to play the game - I’m not going there. If he likes the gameplay or some other element enough that it justifies the purchase - fine. What’s not fine in my opinion is to - as I criticized - present the situation as better than it is upon the basis of factors that are vastly overshadowed by the elements that are going wrong (namely, presentation versus text), or convey that things will get better when we have absolutely no reason to expect that in the current situation.”
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Not really. The discussion is getting so rarefied that my canary just asphyxiated.
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I still point out that however many Night Elf fans stopped paying for WoW because of the presentation of Cataclysm did not make Blizzard take a look at itself and make things better for the Night Elves. Instead Blizzard burned down Teldrassil.
I’m not saying incremental actions never translate into larger effects. I am saying in the case of Blizzard and the Night Elves, they did not.
I mean, I have a pretty strong support system of friends who don’t think I am toxic at all, so… I don’t really worry about what people, who I don’t even know, and who don’t even know me, think about me.
The only other one in the world in the same league as Thrall is Malfurion, but he was struggling to hold Darkshore together, I doubt he could do what Thrall did because of that.