[News] Shadowlands Class Updates

I’m only going to comment on classes I’m extremely familiar with, so…

Death Knights
Great start for death knights, but don’t stop there! A return to rune diversity would be fantastic, as while not overly complicated, it did add some additional layer of skill expression in the form of pooling runes.

Druids
It would be cool if druids also had healing touch once again. As well as rip and frenzied regeneration regardless of spec, being moderately reduced in effectiveness if not specialized.

Mages
Great changes overall. I understand why ignite targets were capped out, but I think it could be a higher cap while still being reasonably balance-able.

Monks
I don’t believe the touch of death change is particularly great for windwalkers. I think it’s a much more engaging ability, certainly in PvE, as an additional cooldown which can be used to increase your damage for a short duration. Perhaps it would be better if it was a PvP talent choice to have touch of death become an execute once more. But in PvE I would, if anything, prefer that the damage increase against the target be raised to make it feel more impactful to interact with the ability.

I also don’t like the idea of moving windwalker AoE damage away from player control with a randomized proc. I think the legion windwalker may have had something similar, but really procs like this just mean the ability’s damage has to be reduced to compensate for a portion of the casts being free on average and that’s not really fun.

The legion windwalker was probably the most enjoyable iteration to play in the monk’s lifespan. In fact, it was the most enjoyable spec of any class that I’ve played. And so I really think changes to windwalker should push it more in that direction! Drastically deterministic damage output, full damage to all targets with fists of fury, strike of the windlord as it was (PLEASE not as a talent), energizing elixir generating 5 chi and restoring full energy instead of 2 chi and granting energy regeneration, uncapped mark of the crane, healing on transcendence teleport, 2 cost fists of fury (perhaps as a talent choice in the level 90 row? hit combo is satisfying, but hard to notice in a decent monk’s rotation. Rushing jade wind isn’t really necessary considering how much AoE a windwalker should have already. Xuen is becoming baseline), spiritual focus should be baked in and the talent replaced with the legion legendary bracers’ effect in which chi spent increases the duration of storm earth and fire.

Flavourful aspects of the legion windwalker should also return. Such as the transfer the power trait, crosswinds trait, baseline good karma with the talent being replaced with the legion legendary cloak effect to drastically increase the absorption and reflection, healing elixir. All of these things can be balanced with number tuning of one form or another, it’s not about doing lol amounts of damage. It’s about the satisfaction and skill expression of being able to correctly utilize all of these abilities to their fullest. And so please bring these things back to windwalker.

The mistweaver and brewmaster changes are both excellent, though I think brewmaster should have keg toss. Even if it no longer slows and instead does minimal damage, keg toss made sure that brewmasters always had a decent way to grab or maintain aggro on multiple or distant enemies. I believe it would be a very well received re-addition. I know that my personal dislikes for brewmaster are few, but one of them is certainly watching my ability cooldowns while distant or multiple enemies smash my group because of slightly disorganized pulls which are easily rectified by every other tank.

Paladin
I think the paladin changes are great, except that I actually think blade of justice should either be pruned, or it should have 2 charges instead of crusader strike. As it stands, retribution feels strange in that it has a ridiculous amount of holy power to spend, but it almost never feels efficient to generate as blade of justice will come off cooldown halfway through a global, or you’ll have so many buttons to press, or a few resets in a row, and so you regularly accumulate 2 charges of crusader strike, which feels like a very low priority spell, but wasteful to have 2 charges of nonetheless. And so I think either having less holy power and more emphasis on damage outside of templar’s verdict/divine storm, or having multiple charges on blade of justice instead of crusader strike will alleviate the somewhat awkward feeling in the rotation.

Priest
I think the legion shadow priest was largely considered fun due to the void form mini game. As the importance of good void forms have become less and less relevant, I personally just think shadow priests should go back to the days of shadow orbs and devouring plague. With the shadowy raven themed shadow. Rather than the void-obsessed shadow. If it’s to stay as it is though, I think performance during void form should be more impactful with longer lasting effects on the rest of combat.

Shaman
Shaman changes are fantastic, I only wish enhancement got the frost treatment in that it may choose between two handed and dual wield.

Warriors
I think it would make more sense to grant shield wall to warriors rather than ignore pain. Shield wall temporarily protects a warrior at no real cost to their damage. Whereas ignore pain drains damage resources in order to turn a DPS into a paper tank while also doing less damage. Also whereas fury is fine, I think arms would benefit from some major changes. Below 20% arms runs into this problem where you no longer use slam or rend. Even mortal strike is less rage efficient without overpower stacks. Mortal strike should be a rage generator, not a spender, to make it worth using as a stand alone ability. I think rend should deal more damage over a longer duration as to make it worth using below 20% without affecting its damage per second. I also think overpower’s effect should be baked into rend. And that slam should simply become execute on targets below 20%. That is, one ability becomes the other, not baking execute into slam, or vice versa. People would be upset if either disappeared and so it’s important they they be different abilities, just on the same button so as to make sense why one stops being pressed. This is also just personal preference, but I prefer thunderclap over cleave. It looks cooler and hits everything around me rather than only those in front of me. I’d say both is fine, but then we’d be looking at 3 AoE abilities, 5 with bladestorm and sweeping strikes. Seems like a bit much. Also I think the effects of colossus smash should be reduced, but the ability’s cooldown should be reduced while maintaining the initial damage. I think these changes would overall smooth out some weird kinks with arms without actually losing anything.

All of that said, I’m liking a lot of what I’m seeing so far. Some of it is even weirdly specific stuff I’ve been writing in suggestions for years; so I’m very happy to see it! I hope you’ll continue to iterate based upon feedback because this expansion is already shaping up to improve a lot of things. :slight_smile:

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It really depends on if abilities will be locked out for not having a 2h equipped, but really, Blizzard gets to set how much damage shield slam can do per spec. My current take is that arms with a S+S is akin to using an extreme version of defensive stance. Damage output will be hurt, sure, but survivability will go up, and the scales still likely won’t tip as far as being in protection spec. If nothing else, it allows adaptation in the midst of battle.

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i hope we get the old talent tree system back.

No, it doesn’t. They weren’t locked out before and they still sucked with a 1hander and shield. How long have you played?. You were able to use 1hander and shield all the way up to like Legion, gladiator stance was added in WoD to make it viable, before that it still sucked because a 1hander doesn’t deal as much dmg as a 2hander…

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All hunter traps back to all hunter specs? Didn’t see that mentioned.

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I have the Quel’Serrar. The original.

Yes, a part of the experience does depend on if we need a 2h to use mortal strike as arms, or if we can now use a 1h instead. Otherwise, we’re really looking at a watered down prot setup with maybe a few different utilities? So hopefully we’re going back to pre-legion rules, because it’s going to hurt if we aren’t and using a 1h in arms requires a whole separate hotbar.

And it comes as no surprise a 1-hander doesn’t deal as much damage as a 2-hander. I have no idea what point you’re trying to refute with this statement.

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Few things in this is a bit inconsistent I feel like.

For a great ‘unpruning’ it’s a little odd that Druids can’t getting mark of the wild back baseline when other classes get back classes that are getting back abilities they will likely use significantly less and isn’t as useful as an extra thing they bring to a group.

Why don’t warriors get single minded fury back? Not every warrior wants to use TWO 2-handed weapons and much prefer the look of two 1-handed weapons but maybe this goes against how ‘fast’ (in bfa, imo too fast) you made the spec. I think it would be fine to slow the spec down when using 2-handers but have it be as-is now when using 1-handers.

Visually it would make a lot more sense because why can a warrior wield TWO 2-handed weapons with such insane speed while arms can’t even match it and they’re just using ONE 2-handed weapon? From an immersion stand-point it just doesn’t make sense.

The fact that you’re giving 2H to Frost DK’s and Enh Shaman should outright mean fury warriors should get this option back as well. Be consistent. This expansion is supposed to be about more options and choices right? (Also side-effect: It would balance out loot rolls since DK/Shaman may be rolling on 2H now, let warriors roll on 1H to balance it out more again).

Also since you’ve added so many abilities back to Warriors baseline (not sure I agree with ignore pain) it seems a little odd you wouldn’t add stances back. Stances is a good way to avoid action bar bloat by locking abilities into certain stances and creates more deliberate gameplay (go def stance to use spell reflect for example) and also from a PVP stand point makes it more readable from the opponent and viewer perspective.

Finally… Paladins.

Seeing you double down on holy power is outright depressing, this one aspect has been the bane of the class ever since it was introduced and the fact you’ve gone back and fourth on it a few times (it was part of holy, then not, now is again) just proves the point that there is an inherent problem with it.

I used to main paladin right up until holy power was introduced in Cataclysm, I tried it for a bit naturally but I ended up changing mains because the class just isn’t fun with holy power. I honestly do not think there are that many people who genuinely enjoy holy power and many more who dislike it and have just left the class altogether. I know personally I can’t even stand to play it as an alt despite how much progress had been put into the character because holy power is just that much of a turn off and this just creates animosity because it feels so wasted how much time i spent on that character and knowing I’ll never be able to enjoy playing it again because you guys are willing to die on this hill of holy power.

Please just remove holy power from the entire class, it’s not iconic to the class whatsoever and is just holding it back and being a barrier to entry for all those who used to love paladin. As a said before, it’s a little disheartening that you guys are willing to die on this hill to keep holy power in the game when you’ve been getting feedback since Cataclysm telling you that players are consistently not liking it. Given you’ve had a full decade to try and address this you should just remove it because it’s never going to feel good and proof is in the pudding as they say - the 10 years it’s been around with consistent comments on people wanting it removed.

On that note, you should’ve had seals come back as well since they were an iconic part of the class and visually distinct from every other class when using them as well. They stand out like when you change aura’s, and while it’s just a small aspect it really helped define what a paladin looked and feels like.

I truly hope you guys are listening to feedback this time around and we see something as a result, not like BFA where things went unanswered. You still need to remove more of the GCD changes you made as well (E.g all movement abilities, like interrupts should be off GCD (fel rush, vengeful retreat come to mind)) .

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Yea I was leveling my Balance with the exp buff, but now I’m going to end up dropping her. ECLIPSE WAS NOT FUN, and I have no idea why they’re bring that back when Balance feels so much better to play with the current Empowerments.

It looks like Elemental’s coming back though, so I suppose that’s going to be my primary ranged caster for Shadowlands.

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I’d have to agree with Alleros, I did not want my choice of the OTHER specs’ abilities, I was hoping to get back the choices taken from my OWN class spec, because that’s what gave it that small bit of uniqueness and personalization. I’m really just hoping this is act I of a multi-part unpruning cause getting MM’s abilities as a BM, doesn’t feel like unpruning. Maybe include pet abilities in part II and possibly III as well? Cause a lot of our class identity was in pets and their abilities we could utilize while MM and SV couldn’t like spirit beasts.

It won’t. If its DPS sucks because 1handers don’t deal as much damage as a 2hander then people won’t be allowed to use it to DPS, sure you can roll around solo questing as it, but most won’t want a gimped dps because you want to pretend to be a prot warrior light. They’d at most be allowed to use a macro to weapon swap and cast the shield abilities and swap back to continue DPS.

I’d like to remind everyone that while passion is great, this is in alpha, and Blizzard has given us signs that feedback might actually matter for once. Make your voices heard, but don’t get overwhelmed with your own emotions and please don’t lash out at others, as I’m seeing in this chat.

The fact that SMF wasn’t announced for Fury doesn’t mean that Blizzard has become an evil corporation that doesn’t actually value player choice (there’s other off-topic reasons to give Blizzard crap), it doesn’t mean that they said that they won’t ever do it, and so on.

And just personally, I like Retribution. I like Holy Power. I like banking resources instead of cooldowns, and weaving CD management with resource management. But I haven’t played Paladin back when it was used for more than Retribution, so I don’t know yet. Please speak for yourselves with your opinions, not the entire player-base.

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Holy Power is bad enough for ret, it makes all abilities except TV feel pretty much useless and weak. But to return holy power to Holy paladins is almost incomprehensible. It was the worst system in the entire game for healing and I’m sure the statistics of people who quit playing holy paladin in Cata would support them if they exist (maybe the do? i dono). This change show how utterly out of touch the devs are but what else can you expect when most of them were still in middle school when cata was out

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I’ve never had an issue with holy power myself, and I’ve played Paladin since the start of Wrath. I feel like the complainers are those who just don’t like the concept of banking resources instead of managing cool downs. I was pretty sad when Holy lost its Holy Power, but it was ultimately the redesigned mastery and the emphasis on being a “melee healer” that caused me to eventually stop healing on my HPal.

If shaman get 2 handers again I will for sure play Shadowlands and play one. I’m intrigued by 2h bo staff monk, that could possibly bring me back for a bit.

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Survival is going to be the weirdest spec in the game.

A melee spec that will have more range abilities than melee ones.

And this is coming from someone who is actually a fan of the spec.

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Why must you torment me so? Paladin was finally playable again at least on 2 specs since you removed Holy Power from Holy and Prot. PLEASE do not return this abominable mechanic to all 3 specs. It needs to be removed COMPLETELY. Holy Power is literally the worst mechanic in the game and you know it.

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Prot and Holy are already on a Holy Power system in Battle for Azeroth; it’s just charges of Shield of the Righteous / Holy Shock cooldowns instead. Holy Power is more intuitive in how you earned it (instead of needing things like Grand Crusader procs to “give charges” or whatever) and it feels cooler to spend Holy Power than charges of an ability. Plus having a Holy Power system allows Blizzard to actually put more damage back onto our spells instead of having to keep the damage low because we can spam things like Shield of the Righteous.

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No. Just no. It does NOT feel cooler, it feels wonky at best. It is NOT intutiive. It leaves you constantly waiting for enough holy power to do -anything- useful. Its like taking a combo point system and adding restrictions. Prot actually is fun to play NOW. It was not with holy power. Ret has NOT been fun to play since Wrath.

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Don’t forget about Survival Hunters, too. They used to DW before bows,guns,crossbows became their main weapon.

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How are holy shock procs like holy power?