CAT form no longer removes movement impairing Effekts? Bear Form does? Do i miss something?
Likely an oversight. Itās not listed on ToL or travel forms either, but Moonkin form has it.
This isnāt an official announcement of whatās comming.
Itās a sneak peak into the new talents
Yāall need to relax.
1 Like
I used the Mythic Trap talent calculator to do a first attempt mock up of the resto talent tree, and wanted to post my thoughts (in long form, sorry for the novel here). For reference Iām a regular AotC and M+ Resto Druid and have played the class/spec since WotLK.
TL;DR I think a lot of this feels good and I do feel like some of my decisions have real weight and value. However, there are a number of points that leave me feeling like they havenāt considered what the choices mean to get there; Specific examples are the placement of Skull Bash, the Choice between Photosynthesis and Dark Titanās Lesson, and the gating of Convoke/Incarnation behind Cenarion ward/Abundance.
So going, my prior here is that Iām really trying to adjust my early choices to reach skullbash. Personally I put a lot of weight on interrupts and as a healer that means gaining access to that button in order to respond to a kick that my teammates canāt cover, I am able to do more prevention with 1 button than I would need to do with healing if I didnāt cast it.
So Initially I just picked up remove corruption without a second thought and then scrolled back to realize I would really like Improved barkskin, so I then went back for frenzied regen, but proceeded instead to move towards skull bash, by the time I fill out Increased Armor and Physical Damage, I have 1 point before I am able to proceed into the next tier, so in my mind I have chosen to forgo all of the balance side entirely in order to get to skull bash, Iāve chosen frenzied regen over rake, and Iām now deciding between: improved barkskin, increased healing and magic damage, and iron fur. I went with increased healing and magic damage for 1 point at the moment.
On the Spec side I like everything, so I picked up all of the first row, and then chose improved lifebloom and ironbark over improved swiftmend. This puts me at improved wild growth vs improved regrowth, which I see as a choice between greater aoe potential and greater single target healing. I chose wild growth as Iām already conceiving of lifebloom as being the center of gravity for my single target healing.
These put me into the next point tier, so my mind is much more focused on what opened up, as opposed to what I left behind that I still want. I quickly pick up skull bash and tranquility
On the Class side, my eyes are on three things, and then as Iām writing this I realize a fourth, the first three are the utility that Iām most interested in, Wild Charge, Stampeding Roar and Typhoon in that order of priority. I personally love Wild Charge, as it allows you to respond/plan movement in a number of different ways which you can determine by your shapeshift form. The current listing of that spell is showing only the simple caster version, but I am hoping it will retain its multiform functionality. The caster form is still valuable, but taking away cat/travel/boomkin form would be a dramatic cut to the skill ceiling that the talent opens up. Stampeding Roar is just generally good raid utility and its central position leaves me relatively confident that I will get there, likewise I love that I am certain to pick up soothe on my way to it. Typhoon is what I previously looked to for interrupts in the past. Itās position off to the side leaves me unsure if I can path across to get to it, but I have Skull Bash now, so I donāt feel like itās the end of the world, and Iām sure future groups wonāt mind the mobs suddenly getting knocked 15 yds away. The fourth thing I mentioned is that I realize as Iām looking over this next tier Iāve already specced into improved Wild Growth on the spec side, but Iād only just now be getting this on the class side (Iām putting in points 1 at a time going form tree to tree, to proxy the leveling experience). I question how new players to the class will understand this, it seems to me that it should be further up the class tree (Iām thinking as a branch off of remove corruption? In between Ironfur and Increased Healing and Magic Damage? Not the end of the world but just felt out of place at first glance.
I pick up Increased Healing/Healing Taken, Soothe, Wild Charge, Stampeding Roar, Wild Growth. I have 5 points, and Iām currently comparing Thick Hide & Ursocās Endurance vs Sunfire, Astral Influence & Typhoon. I could also go back for Improved Barkskin & the other two points into Increased Healing and Magic Damage. Iām not at all thinking about any of the initial balance talents, nor any of the left side talents involving combo points (Rip, Maim, Primal Fury). I am consciously thinking about how I am set up to path in the next tier. So much of the bottom three rows is attractive and interesting. In the path that Iāve taken I really havenāt set myself up to do much damage, so Iām looking mostly at Innervate, Natureās Vigil, and Well-Honed Instincts. Reflecting on this for a second, Iām realizing this feels a bit like a raid build, when I originally set out for Skull Bash with Mythic + in mind. Not going to back track now, but it feels a little off, I think it might make more sense to conceive of the damage specs being the inside tracks, and the healing and tanking specs being the outside track. It feels very easy to become tanky and do healing, but I feel like I would have needed to sacrifice a lot of path flexibility in order to pick up damage options. I realize I canāt go back for Thick Hide (at least not as the tree functions on Mythic Trap) so I go for the balance side picking up Sunfire and Improved Sunfire. Again I canāt go back up, so I instead pick up Increased Healing and Magic Damage for two more points (3/3 now) and I donāt know what Iām doing with my last point. I canāt open up the left side branch at the bottom, so Incap, Well-Honed Instincts and Furor are gone, and nothing I can select opens new options. Iām weighing Starfire vs Improved Barkskin (1/2) and go with Barkskin.
On the class side, I love inner peace and yseraās gift, but Iām not a huge fan of the cenarion ward/abundance choice node, neither are very appealing (that first talent tier in the MoP system always felt rather bland). So, looking initially to pick up inner peace and then move down the sides. As Iām looking at that path, Iām realizing this would box me out of the incarnation vs convoke choice node entirely and I hate that feeling. Those are two very fun buttons, and a real and legitimate choice that could go either way, but having all paths lead through cenarion ward and Abundance feels forced to me, personally.
I quickly pick up Inner peace, Yseraās Gift, and Stonebark (on the side, I still feel off about spending three talent points to get back to the originally functionality of Ironbark. Itās still good, but it feels like Iāve been taxed unfairly. Iāll need to see other healers treeās to resolve my thoughts). I have 5 points and am trying to think again about what I want, and what I want to be set up for in the next tier. Despite my preferences, I pick up Cenarion Ward, in order to open up the Incarnation vs Convoke branch, then go back for Unstoppable Growth and Improved Tranquility and Wild Growth. Since all but one of these were two point choices I didnāt give much attention to Nourish, Soul of the Forsest, or Cultivation, as I didnāt feel I had the points to spare. Similarly, I really didnāt feel myself looking back at what I had missed (Improved Natureās Swiftness, Improved Regrowth, and Improved Ironbark) despite all of those being totally fine.
Back to the Class Tree, I know I want Innervate, so I quickly pick up Ursolās Vortex and Innervate, and finish the branch with Natureās Vigil. The Furor branch is off the table, so I go down for Improved Stampeding Roar and Heart of the Wild. I have 3 points left and Iām looking at going back to Balance for Starfire, Starsurge, and Moonkin Form, versus Improved Rejuvination, Renewal, and point two in Improved Barkskin. Overall, Iām realizing it has been VERY easy for me to pick up generally good personal safety options, so I go in favor of the balance route. It feels a little bad to leave Improved Rejuvenation behind though.
Finishing the Spec Tree thereās a lot I want here, but I start with picking up the entire Convoke Branch, 7 points left. As Iām looking at the rest of the bottom branches, it strikes me that things feel a little disorganized. My expectation is that Iām to be choosing between a mode of healing AoE vs single target, but it seems rather spread out, such that Iām not really specializing either way. I love Flourish, but I think Verdant Infusion fixes what is fundamentally wrong about Swiftmend, the HoT removal. I go for Grove Tending, Improved Innervate, Verdant Infusion, and Ephemeral Incarnation (however I think Flourish vs Verdant Infusion would be more of a real choice if the component of Verdant Infusion that cancelās Swiftmendās HoT removal cost was baseline to the spell). I have 3 points left, the choice between Spring Blossoms and Overgrowth seems like a real AoE vs Single Target, but Iām not sure I want either and Iām weighing both against Rampant Growth. In my mind, having multiple Regrowths out on other players, would allow me to funnel extra healing into the lifebloom target, which seems really good. So I go with Rampanth Growth, I pick up Germination but Iām not really excited about it and now Iām choosing between Adaptive Swarm, Photosynthesis vs Dark Titanās Lesson, and Circle of Life and Death. With one point in hand, this feels like a real weighty choice, both Adaptive Swarm and Circle of Life and Death add to my damage profile that I previously felt like I was lacking a bit of from the class tree, while Dark Titanās Lesson would allow me to capitalize on Rampant Growth either for both tanks in raid, or spreading around in a M+. To be clear, and Iāve said this elsewhere, I donāt think the choice between Photosynthesis and Dark Titanās Lesson is a good one. I think having Dark Titanās Lesson opens up Photosynthesis to be usable in the first place, so with them being unusable together, I am just not even considering Photosynthesis at all. For the last point I see myself moving it around based on the content I am in. Circle of Life and Death is a good all around, while I might pick up Dark Titanās Lesson for healing intensive Raids/Dungeons, or Adaptive Swarm if I need to bring more damage.
Overall, I enjoyed the process, there are definitely some sore points, but not every decision can be easy, and there is likely still a lot of iterations of these trees before they even get to an alpha/beta. Great work, thanks for sharing!
It looks like it from the graphic.
Can you get rid of like 8 of the Tigerās Fury talents and add 1 Claws of Shirvallah button, PLEASE!?!?!?
3 Likes
Wheres yseraās gift at?
1 Like
Donāt worry, they will return it in 11.0
Resto tree only now.
Class Talent Tree
So after playing with the talent choices a bit here I must admit that Iām a bit taken back by the favoritism that the tree tends to have toward Resto and Balance druids when it comes to the overall view of the class, primarily focusing on these abilities
- Hibernate
- Remove Corruption
- Typhoon
- Mass Entangle / Vortex
Now, to put things into perspective, Iām looking at this from the stance of a Guardian druid. Right out of the gate, youāre going to dump 8 points into:
- Improved Barkskin (2)
- Swipe (1)
- Improved Frenzied Regeneration (1)
- Increased Armor & Physical Damage (3)
- Ironfur (1)
At this point that unlocks rows 5, 6, and 7. From this point youāre going to continue to fill out the Guardian/Feral side with the following:
- Skull Bash (1)
- Thick Hide (2)
- Soothe (1)
- Ursocās Endurance (1)
- Stampeding Roar (1)
It is at this point Iām focusing primarily on picking up talents that give me a toolkit that resembles what a Guardian druid has today. So to satisfy that, and the 6 points required to move forward in the tree, Iām going to take
- Starfire (1)
- Starsurge (1)
- Moonkin Form (1)
- Astral Influence (2)
- Typhoon (1)
At this point we can proceed with rows 8 and beyond by taking the following:
- Incapacitating Roar (1)
- Well-Honed Instincts (2)
- Lycaraās Teachings (3)
- Improved Stampeding Roar (1)
- Renewal (1)
This leaves me with 3 talent points in the class tree where I can either pick to go down the Restoration tree to pickup Remove Corruption OR I can continue down the balance tree to pickup Mass Entangle.
First off, this feels like a step back from the live server iteration of the class. Itās already a sore point in the druid community as is that the designers have repeatedly given almost all the classā defining utility to Balance/Resto and continually taken from Guardian/Feral.
Ideas
- Increase the number of druid class talent points by 3.
- Consider a separate column in the class tree that gives players a choice to pick a line-up of specific spells that have no pre-requisite, i.e. Hibernate and Remove Corruption are my primary concerns. Iām okay with other things but these two just ultimately seem out of place to me.
- Consider adding spec-specific nodes that grant these one-offs, i.e. a node in the Guardian tree that gives us Remove Corruption in form, and grants us the spell even if we donāt talent into it in the class tree.
- Allow Guardian nodes to tie into Remove Corruption, perhaps by allowing Improved Barkskin to branch left to Improved Frenzied Regeneration and branch right to Remove Corruption, avoiding the need to talent into Rejuv/Swiftmend.
6 Likes
Guardian Tree
So right out of the gate, not being concerned with the number of talent choices, I must say that I find the tree has a lot of really unique options. I do like the idea that weāre seeing a return of many of the really cool Legion legendary abilities, a combination of some Azerite traits, and even some of the Shadowlands legendary bonuses for good measure. So it looks like a really good mix on the surface, that is until you dig into the limited choices.
Maul
So Iām not really sure how to take the first talent choice. Part of me wants to think that perhaps the class designers actually intend to make Maul worthwhile, particularly when looking at the later choices, but another part of me wants to believe that this is some cruel joke.
Berserk this, Berserk that
I really donāt see the need or purpose behind having 3 different Berserk talent choices. It would make more logical sense that there be a single node, it can cost 3 talent points but that node needs to exist in a position that seems far more logical than being spread across the tree as it is in the current iteration.
Deeper you go the more restrictive it becomes
A lot of this will depend entirely on tuning & what-not but if I use live as my baseline, I believe weāll likely need to at least go down the left side to Ursocās Fury at a minimum. While I hate to give up Rend and Tear or Untamed Savagery, Iām not convinced that their placement relative to other things will see much play at least in Mythic+.
On the right side, I also hate the idea of giving up on Blood Frenzy. This talent really helps smooth out the rage issues, particularly on smaller pulls when you donāt have Berserk or Incarnation, so unless the designers intend to improve rage generation somehow, this is going to be an unfortunate loss imo.
So if we assume that Incarn continues to be the play in Mythic+, which I suspect it shall particularly with its synergy with Ursocās Fury, the middle tier is likely going to be the default way you play so we are going to be giving up things to make that possible.
So hereās how I see the talent tree playing out:
- Maul
- Gore
- Survival Instincts
- Brambles (BF potentially for raid, assuming its cd remains the same)
- Improved Bear Form
- Improved Survival Instincts
- Improved Mangle
- Innate Resolve
- Infected Wounds
- Berserk: Ravage
- Gory Fur
- Pawsitive Outlook (2)
- Scintillating Moonlight (2)
- Layered Mane (1)
- Earthwarden
- Twin Moonfire
- Galactic Guardian
- Reinforced Fur
- Berserk: Persistence
- Fury of Nature (2)
- Berserk; Unchecked Aggression
- Ursocās Fury
- Eluneās Favored
- Circle of Life and Death
- Incarnation, Guardian of Ursoc
What I donāt know is if the talent calculator I was using had a bug but it seemed that you were required to pick both Scintillating Moonlight, Pawsitive Outlook, and Fury of Nature ranks to advance but Layered Mane only required 1.
There are two paths here depending on how these nodes are to work. If only 1 point is necessary per node to advance and you can forego the second rank, then you would have 5 points left over assuming you take 1 point for Pawsitive Outlook, Scintillating Moonlight, Layered Mane, and Fury of Nature. This would open the door for some interesting later choices, but the programmer in me honestly believes that the talent calculator is broken and all ranks are required to advance, which means we only would have 1 talent left and weāll be forced to spend 1 more into Layered Mane, which seems more likely.
What Iād like to see
I touched on this earlier but Iād like to see the Berserk choices combined into a single node with multiple ranks. If that seems more limiting than them being separate choices, then look into rearranging them to be easier to obtain.
Secondly, Iād like to see several nodes inverted with another node, particularly:
- Pulverize with Untamed Savagery/Rend and Tear
- Soul of the Forest/Blood Frenzy with Guardian of Elune/After the Wildfire
1 Like
Can we bring back talent trees from classic/tbcā¦? It feels like this is conduit trash 2.0. Also nerfing feral and gaurdian again forcing yseras gift to only resto is wrong.
3 Likes
Its only Alphaā¦
Its only Betaā¦
Just Release Patchā¦
we all Know how things Ends up
10 Likes
As for Guardian, Yseraās Gift hasnāt been a solid pick since BFA, and based on my talent pass for DF, it wouldnāt be even if it was available to Guardian druids, so meh.
As for Feral, was Resto Affinity really the way to go in Shadowlands? Every person I know took Balance Affinity, so Iām not sure itās really that much of a loss.
If you want to focus on seems like a toolkit nerf, I think a better focus would be on the position of utility like Hibernate, Typhoon, Remove Corruption, and Mass Entangle.
It is something you have to talent into.
But this is one area we all need to pay careful attention to in other tank specializations. For example, I expect every tank to talent into their interrupts, stuns, and active mitigation and if we find that isnāt the case, a red flag needs to be raised immediately.
agree with you
This talent design is only to split the product of the current version and make it into a talent
But there are many talents that are not necessary or should be changed as basic skills to necessary points.
Honestly not interesting overall, yeahā¦ really annoyed after watching it
Seeing that Predator and Sabertooth have to be chosen again, I really think thatās enough
Soul of the Forest and Savage Roar are also quite deep
Before testing, it can be predicted that the long-term lack of energy problem has not changed
If Berserk is still on a 3-minute cooldown, the existing abilities will be split out and turned into talents
Then this skill is also like garbage, what is the meaning of existence?
Did the person in charge of designing this talent have no brains, or is he a complete layman who has no in-depth understanding of the Feral issue?
2 Likes
Itās kind of silly to look at the new expansion system through the lens of whatās currently viable/good in Shadowlands. We donāt know base number tuning on the abilities, or whatās going to happen tuning wise to the specs themselves. For example, if they buff the heck out of balance druid dots, suddenly choices that are mediocre now will be a lot more appealing. Also, even if the majority of abilities are the same/similar to what we have, there are going to be several combinations of effects that havenāt been possible before.
Itās kind of silly to look at an ability on a talent tree and say āope, that conduit is in the game right now and it SUCKS!ā, and ignore that part of the reason that it sucks is because you only get 2-3 potencies and that ability competes for the slot. Itās completely different in an open-ended 71 talent point system; itās not the same opportunity cost.
Iām personally excited to see Orbit Breaker on there even if it isnāt OP torghast version. The idea of potentially playing Circle of Life and Death to fuel out moons, possibly playing pulsar in there as wellā¦seems like good fun.
5 Likes
I dont know if this has been posted yet but check this out.
Basically a talent calculator
1 Like
Iāve skipped most of this thread, but this stands out a lot.
Also I keep seeing āwhy would anyone choose thisā
Anyone think thereās not going to be a separate pvp talent tree? That perhaps some of these abilities are in there not because you wouldnāt choose them, but because they may be pvp centric?
Celestial Alignment/Incarn automatically putting sunfire and moonfire on all targets in aoe + circle of life and death talent + shootingstars/solstice/orbit breaker looks like it could be pretty nice and fun for boomie m+ aoe. Ton of dots up instantly, procing a bunch of shooting stars, giving lots of AP and dropping a fat full moon in aoe, sounds fun. Too bad thereās no CA/incarn cooldown reduction thoughā¦ so youāll only be pumping aoe every 3 minutes which is too long in m+. If they add something that can bring it down to like 2 minutes~ that would be pretty exciting, annoying that all of the fun of the spec is baked into a 3 minute cd.
Guardian Tree has probably the biggest changes from Shadowlands build, lots of unique options there and can be quite different from current guardian. Can go heavy moonfire emphasis or even make a maul build lol, and get lots of combos not available on live, interesting.
Resto looks a bit boring, basically just Shadowlands resto but you can get 2 covenant abilities (but without all the conduits/covenant leggo that buff them up) and 2-3 current leggos. Of course thatās pretty powerful but eh as this talent revamp is a major feature of the expansion I would hope for a bigger playstyle shift compared to live, would like to see more borrowed/removed powers from other expansions coming back rather than just like āhereās everything from Shadowlands again, but you can have more of it at onceā.
1 Like
Aināt that the truth!!!
Some kid was in here dunking on scent of blood because ānObOdy eVeR pICks ThAtā.
Likeā¦ yoā¦. You can pick all three now!
Scent of blood, primal wrath and brutal slash can all be played together.
Thats amazing!
but noā¦. You got all these kids in here crying because they donāt understand whatās happening.
āGive us LoTPā
/facepalm
3 Likes