Hopefully after Guardian gets the love they need they do something about the general tree
It’s still a mess.
My theory is that the general tree and guardian tree are taking some time so while they are totally silent about them, I feel like they will be updated as well. There’s no way they spend this much time on the resto/feral/balance trees and leave the general so trashed.
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There were some stealth bear changes this week that feel like precursors similar to how feral got some minor tweaks before the full re-do.
Druid general tree would be the hardest given there are 4 specs, with each being a different role.
I imagine it would be very difficult to balance and path correctly so players of all 4 specs are happy, also noting pve and pvp players want different things.
As a general observation for the Resto tree, the new Verdancy talent seems very lackluster without utilizing the synergy from Photosynthesis. I don’t see any Druid taking it unless they specifically are going for a full Photo build. I think a good thing might be to let the talent proc off of an additional HoT, maybe Regrowth? Rejuv might be too powerful depending on the proc chance, but a chance to proc on Regrowth could be welcome in making it more potent without having to rely on a full photo build.
Before, it directly led to photosynthesis from one side so it made sense. Now circles taken its place with photo behond that.
Its not really a bad thing if circles increased tick means more photo blooms but it is a little less direct now. Its definitly feels likr a forced build though.
Edit- has anyone tried circle double bloom and photo with verdancy for like a mana efficient raid stack fight/tank heals. Could be a fun alt build to the normal tree/flourish stuff.
I am noticing that I am having more trouble dpsing with my Rdruid than with my Hpriest and MW. Maybe he’s executing the rotation wrong, but I’ve noticed that the Hpriest’s new spell is doing a lot of damage, I think the energy regen + Eclipse nerf is significantly affecting the Rdruid’s dps… I’d like them to give us 1 spell (other than covenant), that it was a spell to do dps (since there are useless or not so flashy talents) or at least give us back the aforementioned (except Eclipse, since that system was completely changed).
Since the double crit combo was moved to the tree and taken out of heart, the bonus energy regen should be added to take its place for smoother cat weaving.
I love the double combo points on ptr (way more then bonus energy regen, i can stack haste to make up for that) and with circle; single target moon/sunfire need a refresh often enough energy isnt a problem, but aoe will just be sunfire/thrash into swipe spam and the energy decrease is noticeable there.
Id still prefer heart be a permanent passive like it originally was but any buffs to its current form to make it worthwhile are nice.
Testing Feral’s Talent at PTR
The biggest feeling is that Incarnation (or Berserk) cannot compete with Conflux of Elements
The DPS and rewards given by Incarnation are too poor unless the existing 4 set bonus is added to Incarnation and it may be able to fight against Conflux of Elements
Otherwise, the choice between the two is actually just false and has no meaning.
Incarnation’s cooldown is too long, even with another talent that lowers the cooldown
But overall it’s still a minute longer than Conflux of Elements
Incarnation has no obvious improvement or change in DPS changes.
This is a real gap between AOE and single-target combat compared to Conflux of Elements
The DPS benefit of Conflux of Elements at least under 2~3 goals can meet expectations (more than 3 goals, the diminishing benefit is obvious)
On the other hand, Incarnation’s only 20% reduction in energy consumption is really unattractive and obvious practical benefits
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AOE Testing for Feral and Balance on PTR
Feral:
The AOE is feeling much better now that the changes have been made to the tree, however there are a few things that I noticed that should be fixed.
- Primal Wrath and Tear Open Wounds deal very little damage. In fact, they are always near the bottom of the dps logs.
Suggestion: I would increase PW’s initial damage by 10% and increase Tear Open Wounds by 10%. this would at least pull there damage off the bottom.
Feral AOE Tree:
I am happy with most of it, however, there are a few niche issues that keep away some of the flow to the tree. - Requiring Predator for Tireless energy. I feel that this is too punishing for that early in the tree.
Solution: Just flip them. Have tireless energy take Predator’s place and vise versa. That fixes that. - The placement of Infected Wounds. Having it on the left and locked behind a 2-point sudden ambush is 1. too expensive because your not going any farther up the left side of the tree, and 2. very anti-thematic considering one side of the tree was aoe and other was more single target.
Solution: Just return it back to the right side of the tree, however, if needed switch it with Relentless Predator or Taste for Blood. - I find it awkward that Lion’s strength is where its at considering its most likely in a very dead position.
Solution: Switch Lion’s Strength’s position with Apex Predator’s Craving. The extra bleed damage makes more sense on the right and this Apex gives a strong counter choice for bloodtalons.
AOE analysis for Balance:
- I think overall the new changes have done wonders to make the spec more fluid and fun. The change to starfall most recently was a GODSEND in how it works as well as staying away from the ground retinal. Good Job. I also noticed the significant ability to increase the duration of dots during starfall, which is an absolutely amazing change. The one thing I really hate as a boomkin is refreshing dots. However, with that being said, some issues still linger.
- The very clumsy way that moonfire works in AOE. A reliable comparison is feral’s rake works as well. They both only allow for 1 other targets to be effected and they are not smart selecting, meaning often when packs are in tight moonfire just keeps hitting the same 1 other target. Having to tab target is even worse because it was a very common assurance that i would tab to the target that was just affected by moonfire. The same happens with rake.
Solution: There probably isn’t an easy fix for this issue, and it is a rather profound issue, however, there are a few choices I think would be acceptable.
A. Whenever Starfire hits a target with moonfire already on it, it spreads moonfire to one/two additional targets.
B. Have a talent that allows moonfire and sunfire to be applied at the same time, similiar to what shadow priests have.
C. Have a large AOE or have it like Starfall where all targets in the area are affected by moon and sunfire.
I think any of these options would be wonderful to fix the issue. - The situation with Stellar Drift. With the new changes to starfall, is Stellar drift even a thing anymore? The only differences is the ability to cast while moving and the additional 50% dmg but no stacking. However, as I tested on the PTR, I was able to stack Starfalls much more then the 50% would have ever provided. I find that the talent is somewhat obsolute meow, however, I am sure it would be fine to keep around. The issue I have with the talent really falls on the left side of the tree that is blocked by Stellar Drift.
- I was sort of under the impression that aoe/st were going to be more together, or prehaps I misunderstood and for that I apologize. However, either way, the choice node of Oneth’s Clear Vision and Timeworn Dreambinder seem completely out of touch if a player chooses to stay with the new starfall.
Solution: I think the simpliest solution is just to add a line between stellar inspiration and the blessings choice node. This would provide a different path without having to choose Stellar Drift.
I think the DPS specs in AOE are going to do well, however, with a little tweeking they could be really good.
I mean (a) this is total hyperbole, and (b) the damage breakdown will shift substantially in actual difficult dungeon content where mobs don’t die instantly and therefore allow for more Bite/PW cycles.
??? Why on earth should you be forced to get Tireless Energy - a totally optional talent depending on personal preference - to get Predator which is (a) required for M+ and (b) an actually fun talent?
(1) yes you are and (2) doesn’t solve the problem.
I know PvP definitely wishes IW was more accessible, and I can definitely support improving pathing to get it. However your reasoning just … isn’t it.
(1) No it’s not and (b) That defeats the purpose of Lion’s in the first place, which is to provide a passive alternative to BT.
Just bc you are a blind PVP who is hating the changes doesn’t mean you should be a jack*** about it.
- First off, the damage done by PW and ToW is NOT hyperbole. You claim it was bc mobs die to fast. Newsflash: i was testing on the PTR with a group of 5 dummies with pure aoe over 5 mins. PW actually came in behind ToW at 12/13th out of 14th places on damage logs AND was doing less then 5% total damage on 5 targets of CONTINUOUS aoe.
- Tireless Energy is NOT a optional choice imo. If your going right on the tree (which aoe does), you dont get the TF resets and therefore the extra energy is a MUST. This is especially if one is running short bleeds with life and death.
- The reasoning that the druid dev explicity stated he wanted organized sides. The bleeds ahould be on the right. Make them middle even, for more choice, but they are buried too deep in the left side to be any good.
- Apex provides a great passive choice against BT. Not only does it fit better but it also provides a different playstyle AND is of relative value to BT. Lions Strength wont ever see play with BT as a competing option. You know this and since your a massive bt supporter, you want a dead talent in that node. Well i dont. I would rather put lions strength to use on the bleed side. Get over it.
Do you have logs to show this? I did a bunch of dungeons this past weekend and Primal Wrath was 4th on trash, and ToW was 5th. I’m also curious what your talent build was that achieved such results.
I am so confused. How do you not get TF resets? I mean sure if nothing is dying but in trash pulls mobs die unevenly constantly.
Even if that were not the case, putting a 1 point talent behind a 2 point inherently offers less room for choice than having a 2 point talent behind a 1 point talent.
This is the problem with adding any kind of damage to Infected Wounds (and why I hated it to begin with). The talent is very valuable in PvP no matter what - since it triggers the healing reduction - but the weak movement speed reduction is meaningless in PvE.
Anyways, I agree with improving pathing to Infected Wounds. Just disagree with your suggestions (since the resulting tree would be worse).
This is just, completely untrue? I just repeated what the dev team said the intended function of Lion’s Strength was. If that’s enough for you for Infected Wounds, it should be enough for you here too.
And no, Apex does not remotely compete with BT in any single target scenario.
How so? Worst bc you don’t like it or because PVPers would have to go right in the tree?
So your ok with going into the new xpac with already dead weight in our tree? Because show me a viable and reliable build that takes Lions Strength over BT.
Neither does Lion’s Strength. So what’s the point of leaving all that bleed damage in a dead spot when you can just stick apex there and allow the bleed build to be better.
Or… would that be bad for PVP?
I mean, moving Taste for Blood there is putting a 2 point talent behind a 2 point talent when the two are completely unrelated which is just worse pathing.
Relentless Predator is one point so that’s the same, but it still remains totally unrelated to Sudden Ambush.
Because it’s meant to be a passive alternative for people that either (a) don’t like BT or (b) can’t make it work effectively. Pairing a higher skill cap high reward talent with a lower skill cap lower reward one makes sense.
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When doing test on dummies, I have been getting massive variations. Sometimes I was getting it at the bottom of the damage list and other times in 4th place.
I have a suspicion it is because of mob density. But, I have not been able to duplicate it consistently, so I am not going to say that is the reason. In real content, a single mob does not cause it to be a high damage ability, but in large groups, it is VERY good.
Dummies do not die. That said, I have noticed that if you do not get a death in a decent amount of time, you can run out of energy easily since you are trying to get PW off as much as possible. If you want to maximize your dps, you have 5 seconds to build up the combo points to refresh Rip back up to the 9 seconds PW gives you. It becomes a really big energy drain.
Here is what I am using now
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/feral/DAOBARRHAkYFBFEwgBENVRRkhQVBUCAUBBQ
And what I hope to use later.
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/feral/DAOBBRRHQmYFBVEwgBENVRRkhQVBUiUURBU
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Oh, is this whole thing a total miscommunication because one person is using PTR and I’m doing it on Beta using a premade 70?
This is just confusing to me. Why are you taking Frenzyband without Merciless Strikes or Wild Slashes? Double Clawed Rake without Infected Wounds? Sabretooth without Apex/Rampant Ferocity?
I am very confused what the goal of this build is.
Feel free to be. I stopped playing seriously after the last moment change to feral on Legion’s release. I was extremely sick at the time and just could not handle the gameplay. I got shelved and just have decided to play for fun. In this case, there is really no way I can get both CoLaD and Unbridled Swarm. Well, I can, but I lose Survival Instincts.
Like I said, more fun. More bleeds for MORE fun! Seriously, if I could think of a way to get even more bleeds going, I probably would. With adaptive swarm, it might do better, but I a not holding my breath. The WoD changes to feral is what has me wanting to use more bleeds. Wild Slashes will be more dps in most pulls since Berserk is something you cannot use in every pull.
I keep seeing Rake beat Rip on the PTR even without Infected Wounds. Since most of the mobs die so quickly, I have a feeling it is because it takes so much longer to get rip up vs rake, especially since it stuns two mobs when done from stealth. That one surprised me when I first noticed it.
This one is not my choice. To get to Bloodtalons, I need to go down the left side. I either need to get Sabertooth or BOTH Merciless Strikes and Protective Growth. One talent point vs two. In most fights I have done, I do not use FB. Things are dying too fast. I imagine that in M+, it could be usable, but the hardest thing I do these days is Torghast.
Related somewhat to that, I am seriously considering dropping Heart of the Lion for Raging Fury.
As another note, the inconsistency of Rampant Ferocity hitting mobs has biased me against it. In the last patch, most of the time, it seemed to only hit things in a cone. I have seen how it hits all around you now, so it would not surprise me if it is the better choice.
So yeah, heavy bleed build without worrying about meme level optimization. I hope I play as well as I did when Wrath came out once I hit 75. I already know I have lost most of the muscle memory that made me able to do it at a high level, so I am not holding my breath there.
Yes.
I CLEARLY stated in my initial post that i was on the PTR and my observations were based on the ptr.
Yes, i was on dummies which means after 3 minutes i was extremely energy deprived when running life and death PLUS tear. However, if i was running bonus bleed time instead of tear and was running convoke instead of life and death my dps dropped about 3k or so but the rotation slows enough not to run out of energy so fast but you still do because you get more cleave bites in. However, with saying that, cleave bites do very little damage unless you spec into bites.
Needless to say, PW and ToW still does very little damage at 5 targets. Idk why, but it always runs that way. Thats why either we can get a buff on that or move lion’s strength to the right, it would make up for the low PW dmg. Plus you dont take apex unless your running bite which you wont do on the right. Plus, its just a random free bite. Its extremely low on the skill level, just push the button when it lights up. 10x simplier then BT.
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Alright, that makes sense.
My reply is then that making any kind of tree change or tuning based on PTR is misguided and should never be considered. You will only remain at that number of talent points for a very short amount of time anyway.
What PTR is good for is identifying abilities or talents which don’t function as described.