For raids LOTP gives a problem the new motw doesnt have. If the feral dies during a raid, he would be lower priority for cr than tanks/healers, but raid would lose a big dps buff. So the new motw is better for raids. And WoW is really mostly an instanced pve (raid) game atm.
NoâŚ. It really wasnt.
Balance brought moonkin aura.
Same sameâŚâŚ but different.
âŚ.and thatâs what youâre getting.
What im trying to get at is Leader of the pack is feral exclusive. It means people want ferals.
Motw isnât. Every druid now has it. Its even nerfed by 2% LOTP is 5%.
Its nice to be wanted. Something feral has been missing for a while now.
Iâve been looking at the Druid talent trees on MythicTrap. Here were my initial thoughts.
- Base Druid Tree: Very Clear Heavy Separation between Feral/Guardian and Resto/Balance. I really wonder how this will affect the form-weaving builds. Between Heart, and the new Furor ability they seem to want to emphasize weaving. A lot of the pure utility stuff seems skippable as well. I am curious about the talent âUrsine Vigorâ. The default auto-attack timing for a boss is 2 seconds, it takes 1.5 seconds to form dance yourself. This means, in theory, you could use this as a massive defensive. Easily grabbable for any druid (except Moonkin). Skull bash is deep enough in the tree to discourage Moonkins, but likely not so much that Resto Druids wonât get it. This overall looks more exciting than DK base tree, but not bad.
Balance Druid: There is so much good stuff all over this tree. Itâs all clearly centered around making balance druid better. Largely a passive tree that doesnât necessarily feel good. Unfortunately judging by the abilities they have access to, Balance wonât be in a good way without massive rebalancing, a lot of these talents seem to focus on a dot playstyle, which has always just been sort of an extra thing for balance, not the focus. If Balance can be tuned around building for either DoTs OR Eclipse this tree will be good as is, but if it turns out Blizzard still has the same stance on DoTs that they have had quite a bit lately, then Balance only has half a talent tree at all, and they will lack the things that make it good now (Venthyr). Itâs iffy. Lots of good stuff, some terrible stuff. So far, this is the worst-looking talent tree just because of how heavily passive it is.
Feral Druid: Lot to unpack here. For starters⌠Improved Adaptive Swarm⌠Not mentioned at all in the ability list. But overall, there are about 2 âbuildsâ here. DoTs, and Berserk/Bite. Which one is good is going to come down to DoT tuning. As it stands right now, Berserk will win by a large margin. Solely because DoTs arenât that great comparatively. This talent tree continues the story of Feral Druid just being a subpar assassination Rogue too. All about getting the big fat FBs. I actually really like all these different Berserk talents that combine into 1 super berserk, itâs a nice concept. Overall, Feral will more or less be the same as it is on live, which is a subpar Assassination Rogue, but it looks to have a good single target damage profile with maybe too much DoT focus? Overall, I look at this and I just want as many talents as I can get and will have to decide what to give up for the good stuff.
Also worth noting is nothing that lets the feral druid cast rebirth or soothe in form. Both alarming. On top of casting Rebirth, there is a 1.5 GCD for going back into form. Or just to soothe something you have to spend 3 seconds not even auto-attacking.
Guardian Druid: Good mix of talents, also has the Berserk subtheme as Feral. Lots of strong defensive options. More self-healing than on live. Not sure what to think of this arcane damage subtheme that seems incomplete. There is a bit more emphasis on Maul compared to live where it is useless but still doesnât seem that great. So much good stuff throughout the tree, but seems like a mix of hit or miss, which isnât necessarily a bad thing. Overall a well-balanced tree, but still has something that doesnât look too good. Compared to the Blood DK it doesnât seem like the only really good stuff is only at the bottom.
And Finally, Resto Druid: Not a lot to say. Resto Druid is all about throwing up HoTs. This tree does just that. A lot of Rejuv duplication too. In Raid: Rejuv up as many people as reasonable, watch your rejuvs duplicate. Auto win every healing meter. Having access to a variety of stuff plus flourish is amazing. Literally, nothing bad to say here except too many skills are passive, and still no tranq on the move.
Final Druid Note: Mark of the Wild, 3% Crit Buff, and 3% Magic Damage Taken Reduction. I hate this. I am against mandatory raid buffs. As it stands your raid has to have 1 Warrior, 1 DH, 1 Monk, 1 Druid, 1 Mage, 1 Priest, and 1 Warlock. In a small raid team that is 7 people in your raid decided solely by mandatory buffs/utility. This is bad game design IMO.
Those were my initial impressions that I posted on my guilds discord 4 days ago.
Now after looking at it a bit more, I have a little bit more thoughts. One thing in particular that bothers me is Natureâs Vigil. I love the idea of the talent mostly. I would like it to exist in more of the older versions rather than the most recent version of the talent. All of the final talents in the druidâs class tree are all about doing stuff outside your primary spec, unless you are a Resto Druid with Natureâs Vigil. I would much rather Natureâs Vigil for Resto do damage to a target based on your heals. It just feels odd that the talent just doubles down on healing compared to the other final talents.
Itâs an MMO, I am more than fine with people being able to make bad builds, however, I do not think people should be able to talent into passives that solely upgrade ability X without having to pick up ability X. Examples of this are Wild Growth: Improved Wild Growth, Unstoppable Growth, Improved Tranquility/Wild Growth, Memory of the Mother Tree. Each of those talents do nothing (Except Imp. Tranq) without picking up Wild Growth, but Wild Growth is entirely skippable and still get those. I think this is personally a design flaw.
Also, to all the people who are saying that it feels bad to use talents to pick up abilities you already have. Keep in mind this is supposed to REPLACE all the abilities you would get from leveling via 10-70 (60 on live).
To our knowledge a Resto Druid will gain the following Passively:
Aquatic Form, Barkskin, Bear, Cat, Dash, Root, Ferocious Bite, Travel, Growl, Mark, Moonfire, Prowl, Rebirth, Regrowth, Revive, Shred, Moonglade, Wrath, Rejuv, Swiftmend, and Natureâs Cure
This means that the abilities we will no longer gain via leveling are: Mangle, Ironbark, Sunfire, Ironfur, Lifebloom, Sunfire Cleave Passive, Rejuv Duration Passive, Yseraâs Gift, Ursolâs Vortex, Omen of Clarity, Wild Growth, Tranq, Hibernate, Soothe, Efflo, Innervate, Stampeding Roar, Barkskin Duration Passive, Cyclone, Wildgrowth Target Passive, Innervate Self Passive, Regrowth Crit Passive, Ironbark Heal Increase Passive, Natureâs Swiftness and 7 talents.
That comes out to a total of 32 Passives/Active Abilities. So in the end we are losing 32 abilities and instead gaining 51 (at level 60).
TL;DR: Looks good. Make it so you have to pick up an ability to get upgrades for it. We are effectively having a net gain of 19 âtalent pointsâ compared to live at level 60. Also, raid buffs are bad for the raiding environment. Please stop. I donât want Windfury Totem, Mark, Arcane Int, Battle Shout, Monk Debuff, DH Debuff, or anything like that.
Which also included bears. SoâŚ. Not exclusive.
Hereâs my thoughts on all the Feral related things from the new talent system; shoutout to the cats in the Dreamgrove for being the basis of a lot of the feedback.
The Trees Themselves
Overall the new system looks promising. Simply by looking at the tree, you can see thereâs a couple of different builds for different situations. Feral can spec into all the healing stuff during rotational downtime and offheal, with the reverse for Resto also being true. Ferals can take many of the Guardian talents and become a third or emergency tank (especially if Blizzard gives them access to pve crit immunity, that is). If owlweaving somehow remains, we can go down the right side and pick up all the boomy stuff, the extra range, and support spells like Innervate and Natureâs Vigil. Overall thereâs a lot of strong build options for different situations, which is what I wanted to see from a new talent system.
Out of the four specs on the main tree, Feral is the only one that has a resource generation talent (Primal Fury) on the main tree instead of the their spec tree. I think that having a resource generation talent on the main tree is a good thing, but wonder if that should be expanded to the other specs. Should bear have a Rage talent moved to the main tree? Should boomkin have an Astral Power talent on the main tree? Should there be a mana generation talent on the main tree (that isnât Innervate)? Would definitely encourage using other forms more often in combat.
That being said, a lot of talents in the Feral Tree and some in the Druid Tree look like theyâre in weird spots. The bottom right side of the Druid Tree has Innervate and Natureâs Vigil, two strong healing related abilities. The bottom left has Well-Honed Instincts giving a low hp self heal on a 90 second cooldown and a shapeshifting buff from the new Furor. I feel like the late Feral and Guardian options are weaker than the late Resto and Balance ones. New Furor looks good, but should it be more central so other specs can get easier access to it? Maybe have Furor in the place that Renewal currently is in? A 1 minute Stampeding Roar is a strong counter to Innervate and Natureâs Vigil, but thatâd put it in a spot that would be difficult to access for Balance and non-catweave Resto. Is there anything Feral and Guardian related that could be put on their bottom side of the tree? Maybe the healing portion of Leader of the Pack?
As for the Feral Tree, it looks like a lot of the talents fall into one of four categories; Damage over Time, Direct Damage, Cooldowns or Utility. Damage over time related things were generally put on the left, and direct damage stuff on the right, with everything else that didnât fit put into the middle. Thereâs some outliers though, like Draught and Circle which are both DoT talents being grouped in with direct damage stuff or Bloodtalons which Bite builds want being located on the left side. Either way itâs a bit of a mess and could use a complete restructuring. Even simply allowing the central Berserk node to path to both Primal Wrath and Brutal Slash would do a lot to open the tree up to more possibilities.
Another big gripe is the centre-bottom trio of Infected Wounds, Eye of Fearful Symmetry and the choice between Convoke or Incarnation. Symmetry never saw use in Shadowlands, and Infected Wounds shouldnât be where it is on the tree considering how weak it is. Few will want to spend 3 points to path to either neutered cooldown. Convoke is going back to being a 2 minute cooldown, and losing the conduits and soulbinds that made it so powerful. Incarnation is well, Feralâs Incarn so nooneâs used that all expansion. One idea that was discussed was replacing the location of Wounds and Sym on the tree with Predatorâs Swiftness and Survival Instincts. Both of these are survivability that most Ferals will want to have, so that cleanly merges the two sides of the tree back together and into getting one of the two âmajorâ cooldowns for the spec.
Individual Druid Talents
Thick Hide should have the PvE crit immunity from NPCs that it used to have back in Cataclysm. This made for interesting gameplay and build diversity where a Druid could spec into it, and if the tank dies on a fight and there isnât a battle rez available, it isnât automatically a wipe. The Druid can go into Bear Form and taunt when needed and get fed healing and externals but continue the boss fight without having to immediately call a wipe, possibly leading to a messy kill. Canât really do such a thing on Live, since itâs just RNG as to when you receive a critical hit and die a painful one shot. Itâd also be useful for groups struggling with a boss and want a third tank without punishing the overall raid dps too much. For Feral specially, itâd be a nice bit of niche utility, and utility is something the spec needs right now.
Ursine Vigor is pretty weak for a 2 point option. Itâs mainly used on Live as a temporary health increase to lessen the chance of dying to a mechanic, and then go back to whatever you were doing.
I know itâs a Guardian Talent currently, but can Twin Moonfires (formerly The Lady and the Child, a Balance legendary) be moved to the Druid tree so all Druid specs can make use of it? As for where to place it, possibly in the spot Improved Rejuvenation is in, and allow pathing from Stampeding Roar.
Individual Feral Talents
Feral has the least amount of nodes and the least amount of choice talents, so thereâs definitely some space to add things.
Splitting Berserk up into 3 (4 if you include Incarnation) different talents all in separate parts of the tree also seems like a weird option to me, seeing as itâs generally seen as a weak cooldown in itâs base form. Even on Live, with all the buffs from the 4pc and a legendary, weâre still holding it for up to 30 seconds to pair with Convoke for more damage overall. I think Berserk in general needs itâs own discussion as to what should be done with it. To add to that, the renamed Incarnation still has the same problem that live Incarn has, in that we donât get enough benefit from it to justify taking it. 20% less energy usage isnât a whole lot when Convoke will refill your combo points and energy bar, and Soul of the Forest and others exist to refund energy and combo points. Feralâs Incarnation also needs something big to make it worth taking. Also RIP Sickle, you were nerfed but we still loved you. It definitely should be put back on the tree somewhere.
Many of the traits near the top of the Feral tree just feel like filler. Theyâre existing ability rank 2 or rank3 passives, just stripped out and piecemeal. Improved Shred could be merged into Improved Prowl, opening up a spot for something more interesting. Improved Shred and Swipe on itâs own is pretty weak, 20% increase to two builders. Infected Wounds could have the 20% Shred and Swipe bonus merged into it, and move Infected Wounds to where Improved Shred and Swipe currently is on the tree. Another option would be to put all the Rake stuff into an Improved Rake (including Infected Wounds) at the top left, and all the Shred stuff into an Improved Shred at the top right.
Scent of Blood hasnât been picked as a choice for the entire time itâs been a talent. It wants you to use an ability that does little damage more often than you should so you can spam an AoE ability that does low damage a little more. Thereâs other options that give more energy gain, so in some situations you can happily spam Swipe without needing Scent of Blood. Blizzard should do something to make it better and in a way that doesnât actively make the rotation worse, or just outright remove it. Itâs also in a prime spot for something that all ferals would want to take, like Predatorâs Swiftness or Survival Instincts.
Keeping the choice between Predator and Sabretooth is a weird one to me. Predator is an AoE talent to feed you energy so you can keep attacking. Sabretooth is a mostly ST talent to extend your Rip, so you can Bite more often. On live Sabretooth is useful in AoE if youâre playing Apex and Soul of the Forest, but then Sabretoothâs damage is better than Predator anyway. Itâs just a weird choice to have I think, since theyâre normally used in totally different situations. Sabretooth could be broken down into a multi point talent where more talents extend Rips duration for longer. It could be replaced with the original Bite/Rip interaction, where targets under 25% had their Rip refreshed to full duration if they were hit by Bite. I know some Ferals want Sabretooth just outright removed from the spec, Iâm not one of them but I also have no love for the talent either.
Noone likes Draught of Deep Focus. It actively punishes you for hitting multiple targets which would otherwise be a boon for dot builds. Knowing that it will disable itself when you need to target swap leaves players with a choice of not doing mechanics, gimping their boss damage or just not speccing into something that will go to waste for some or all of the fight. Thereâs many Ferals that want more strong damage over time effects, but even they donât want to see Draught return in itâs current state. Blizzard could instead make it a passive buff to the three dots regardless of target count, or make the buff split between the number of targets the dots are on. Either way, rework or remove in my opinion. Also, itâs current position is a choice between this or Apex, and Apex shines in AoE situations to funnel damage into a single target. Draught does nothing with an extra target, whereas Apex gets stronger with more targets. Not much of a choice between these two. Itâs also weird that Draught is on the right side of the tree, which is where most of the energy/combo point/direct damage stuff is, and not the left with the other DoT talents.
The blue post lists the following for Brutal Slash;
Brutal Slash: Strikes all nearby enemies with a massive slash, inflicting Physical damage. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets. Awards 1 combo point.
Can we get clarification on how Brutal Slash will work? Will it still replace Swipe? If so thatâs awful design because currently Slash is worse in AoE than no talent. If we have to take it to get access to parts of our tree, including AoE options, it kind of defeats the point. If not, does this mean itâll just be itâs own ability? Another button to press when we already have one similar. Hereâs an idea; Make Brutal Slash a buff that applies to Swipe, making the Swipe do a lot more damage so long as there are charges of the buff remaining. Functionally itâd be an improvement over live, since it would mean Ferals wouldnât be stuck without an AoE button to press after depleting charges, nor would we need a separate keybind for a very similar ability.
I am going with the assumption that the 2 talent points for the Swarm passive is to get the legendary effect it currently has, where it has a chance to split? If so, thatâs going to feel awful that we have to spend 3 talents just to make Swarm actually useful in any situation that ever has more than a single target at any point in the fight. Pre-leggo Swarm was fragile in terms of how easy it was for things to go wrong and suffer a huge damage loss. Itâs also a nerfed Swarm as well, almost half as strong, so that just makes it even worse.
Bloodtalons is still controversial amongst Ferals. Some like the current version, some want the old version back, some want both gone for good. Regardless I think where the Feral Frenzy or Bloodtalons choice is on the tree could be in a better spot. I think itâd be better for builds in the right side and middle of the tree if it swapped places with Swarm. That way DoT builds can still get Swarm, but non-dot builds can get Bloodtalons or Feral Frenzy if they need a little extra burst.
Some find that Savage Roar is pretty boring from a gameplay standpoint as it is simply a maintenance buff that doesnât really affect the rotation much. Furthermore, itâs been nerfed quite heavily from the strength it had previously, so the buff to damage it does give isnât something that strong. In the past Roar has been 30% or 40% to all physical damage. At one point this buff changed to effect auto attacks only but was reverted the next expansion. Regardless, the idea of a Feral Druid roaring is iconic class fantasy, so the ability should stay even if it is heavily reworked. Roarâs position on the tree is questionable since itâs normally used by DoT builds, but the only way to access it is via a Bite node on the right side of the tree. Shouldnât something like Apex be behind a 3 point bite node? Also if Roar stays, can we have the 0 combo point Roar back? Make the 0cp Roar only usable outside of combat if needed.
Improved Incarnation and Convoke also seems quite weak. The shifting out of Incarn to get a reduced cooldown seems like a negative to me. Go to Brez, CC or simply heal when youâre low on energy and it just cancels? It needs a worthwhile power boost of some sort to make it a competitive choice. Convoke having an increased chance should probably be a guaranteed chance. The randomness and inconsistency of the ability is not fun for many. Additionally would it be worth adding a new talent that reduces the cooldown of both Incarn or Convoke by one minute? Both will be weak going into Dragonflight, having them be used more often would be fine.
Carnivorous Instincts is a pretty boring talent, and would fit in with the WotLK talent design which is what this revamp is trying to avoid. Iâd say remove it and replace with something more interesting.
The Increased Energy talent is another boring talent. Itâs more energy, but barely enough to make a noticeable difference. Having increased maximum energy alone isnât a dps increase in a patchwork scenario, itâs only good when we have downtime due to mechanics. In Legion Feral had the Chatoyant Signet legendary that gave us 100 extra maximum energy and 5% increased energy regeneration. Could we possibly get the Increased Energy amount buffed from 10/20/30 to 30/60/90, and have some sort of energy gain tied to it? Incessant Hunter with itâs energy gain proccing from Rip would be a good fit here.
Overall I like the idea of the new trees. Merge some talents, move some talents, remove some talents, create some new interesting talents, add a few more pathing options and the Feral tree will be in a good spot.
8 Likes
Really like the talent trees. A couple things that could be looked into though!
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I think it would make the most sense to swap Hibernate and Soothe in the class talent tree. This is a signature Druid ability, and locking it behind Boomkin affinity seems a bit out of reach if youâre wanting to build a certain way.
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Furor: This is a GREAT talent with a lot of potential. I think 20 seconds is a bit too long and really only allows druid to utilize this for their offspec talent route versus their primary one. If this was brought down to 10 seconds or maybe even 8, but had an internal cooldown so we couldnât spam it, I think thatâd be much better. That allows players to actually play around the ability and use it in their rotation versus a super niche scenario. Right now, HOTW and Natures Vigil each have active use versus niche.
Some overall Druid quality of life things outside of talents per say:
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Can you please consider allowing Brez to work in ALL forms? Itâs super punishing for a spec like Feral to have to come out of form because in content like Keys, we have to kick readily and sometimes we get screwed since kick isnât off GCD when in caster form.
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Remove Corruption: Can this also be considered castable in all forms? This is more of a PvP request as a Feral, but if Iâm getting trained in bear form, my healer gets hexâed, I have to get out of bear to cleanse him. No other spec has to forego their defensive to use utility like that (I understand resto druids should be pulled out of bear for their cleanse, Iâm confident you can make this spec specific :P)
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Tigers Fury: Please do not make going into Bear form remove Tigers Fury from us- just make the damage modifier only apply to Cat Form, but losing the buff itself is brutal when in Keys/Raid/PvP we need to get into bear to soak dmg and then back into cat. Itâs super punishing for no real reason.
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Incap Roar: This would be a nice ability to be used in all forms, similarly, to stampeding it can put you in bear by default, but would be nice if both cat and bear can cast it.
Personally, I think both Hibernate and Soothe need to be more centralized in the druid tree rather than Hibernate being to the far right under balance talents. If you simply exchange the placement of these two, you then lock soothe behind balance talents and frankly, weâll likely get far more benefit from Soothe over the lifetime of the expansion than Hibernate.
It is already spec-specific. In BFA (8.2 I believe) Guardian gets a passive talent that allows us to use Moonfire, Rebirth, Remove Corruption, and Soothe while in bear form. If they want to extend that type of passive functionality to another spec, its definitely possible.
1 Like
âŚin an expack full of dargons?!!
(x) doubt
2 Likes
We will have to wait and see Tical, but one thing is certain theyâve been making higher use of enraging abilities at least on dungeon trash mobs for the last two expansions and I expect that trend to continue.
If I could rely on other specs or classes that can dispel enrage effects, I wouldnât care too much about it personally, but given how piss poor the lay hunter, rogue, or even druids tend to be with their Soothe usage today, Iâd prefer Soothe & use a hard CC instead on the dragons.
Hopefully, with the new UI revamp theyâre doing, perhaps if they can add indicators to people to know when to dispel enrage effects, maybe that state will become much better but until then, I just expect to be the one always soothing.
I know, Im just being silly.
We had one dargon fight this entire expansion.
Looking forward to killing dargons again!
I thought it did⌠(or maybe thats my debuff addon?)
The buff/enrage icon glows with a golden border when its dispelable.
Thatâs most definitely an addon or whatever your unit frame addon happens to be. I have something similar with Plater that does it on the nameplate itself.
Canât wait to get into the alpha/beta and see if this is supported, it definitely should be.
I get what youâre going for, but tanking involves so much more than just being crit immune and a Feral going bear lacks pretty much any of those tools - which is a big difference from Cataclysm where the talent difference was like 3 points if I remember correctly. Plus, you can already pull off the âtaunt and live long enough to res the tankâ without the crit immunity anyway.
Agree with most of the rest of what you said though.
Itâs the basic UI 
Yeah Iâm pretty sure it wasâŚ. Same on my shammy, anything I can purge will have a border.
B-elf racial too. They glow!
In a raid setting, the only tool missing is the crit immunity. Youâve got Bear Form for more HP and armour. Youâve got Taunt. Feral will have Barkskin and SI (assuming SI gets moved which it should). Youâll have Iron Fur since you have to spec into it to get Thick Hide. Might pick up Frenzied Regen if you have a spare point. Youâd have every remaining external from the healers when you need it. Sure youâd be a mana sponge but itâs doable. I have done it many times in the past.
Even the Taunt and SI is sketchy because you can RNG a crit and fall over, and thatâs assuming anyone can actually battle rez.
The most important thing would be if the Feral knew the tank mechanics and positioning to avoid wiping.
Either way Iâd rather spec into Guardian stuff on the side than owlweave for another expansion.
2 Likes
I loved Pre-MoP where Ferals could Tank and DPS at pretty much the same effectiveness in one spec. I understand that was hard to balance, but I would love to be able to mimic that feeling in raids or M+ again when one of the tanks die. Very niche utility, but it can be important.
1 Like
Dps and tank with the same spec? Absolutely.
Same effectiveness?
No.
There was very noticeable drop in damage.
The reasons ferals were good offtanks was because even though our dps took a hitâŚ. It was miles better than taking up a raid spot for another prot war/pally who essentially became useless outside of their temporary tanking role.
I know it was a fun game design and I get nostalgic about it also. But to say our damage was effectively the same as a pure cat build is just false.
No, there wasnât. The difference was 3 talent points (it mightâve even been 2, I forget exactly).
It was closer to a 95/100 split in either direction. If you wanted to min/max you would move those points (i.e doing like Heroic Spine pre-nerf or something) but otherwise no.
3 Likes
Critical talentsâŚ. Like blood in the water(old sabertooth) and endless carnageâŚ. stampede. Some others Iâm forgetting.
Those 6 seconds of rake duration was a massive dpe loss. Losing ravage was like 10% of our dps.
Cata was my glory days. (Check the dates of my kills)
I remember always having to bite the bullet and take one for the team. It most certainly was a loss, at least for progression. Once it became farm, you could drop some of the damage reduction talents and just become a meat sac. But yeah. It wasnât ideal.
Zonozz especially. Never got to parse on him because I was on add duty 
Jk. I still did. as a bear thoughâŚ.
Ya boi was world 4th 