New Sylvanas novel available for preorder

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Morghel-daggerspine

we do know that Sylvanas wanted to burn the place down to increase the tally, and to plunge the world into a world war. I somehow doubt most made it out, based on how it is portrayed.

She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said. “What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?”

@Morghel-daggerspine

But they didn’t? The Horde reached the tree as fast a possible, and that allowed Sylvanas to have it burned as soon as possible, to maximise the casualties.

“Siege weapons,” Saurfang said suddenly. “We double the number of siege engines.”

He walked to the map and began placing the stone figures on Darkshore. “If we bring enough siege weapons to Darkshore and aim them toward Darnassus, we have won. We can rain down death with impunity if they resist. They will make their stand before Darkshore, not after. They will evacuate rather than see a final battle destroy their home. When we arrive, the tree will be undefended.”

Nathanos studied the map and nodded. “He is right, Warchief.”

Sylvanas considered it. “It will slow us down. You will need to task guards to keep the siege crews safe, for they will become prime targets for the kaldorei.” Finally, she nodded, too. “But it will work. Put your plans in motion, High Overlord. We begin in one week.”

Your depiction seems pretty different from that of the one in “A Good War.”

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Zarrín-zuljin

She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said. “What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?”

Right, and with the knowledge we now have it’s clear that she was lying. She didn’t want them to escape, she wanted them to die.

@Zarrín-zuljin

Your depiction seems pretty different from that of the one in “A Good War.”

Yea, because a good war have been retconned, or atleast parts of it. Specifically Sylvanas reasoning. Althought it’s easy enough to interpret her as simply lying, knowing he would never have led the Horde there had he known her real plans.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Zarrín-zuljin

@Morghel-daggerspine

we do know that Sylvanas wanted to burn the place down to increase the tally, and to plunge the world into a world war. I somehow doubt most made it out, based on how it is portrayed.

She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said. “What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?”

@Morghel-daggerspine

But they didn’t? The Horde reached the tree as fast a possible, and that allowed Sylvanas to have it burned as soon as possible, to maximise the casualties.

“Siege weapons,” Saurfang said suddenly. “We double the number of siege engines.”

He walked to the map and began placing the stone figures on Darkshore. “If we bring enough siege weapons to Darkshore and aim them toward Darnassus, we have won. We can rain down death with impunity if they resist. They will make their stand before Darkshore, not after. They will evacuate rather than see a final battle destroy their home. When we arrive, the tree will be undefended.”

Nathanos studied the map and nodded. “He is right, Warchief.”

Sylvanas considered it. “It will slow us down. You will need to task guards to keep the siege crews safe, for they will become prime targets for the kaldorei.” Finally, she nodded, too. “But it will work. Put your plans in motion, High Overlord. We begin in one week.”

What Zarrín quoted was from the first chapter of A Good War and was all part Sylvanas systematic lies to Saurfang, this key part into tricking Saurfang into bringing the catalpults in the first place. In the last chapter of A Good War, while the Horde was still in Astranaar in Ashenvale, before even making it to Darkshore, Robert Brooks had Sylvanas reveal an internal monologue:

The kaldorei knew they were outnumbered. They knew their homeland was lost. Maybe a few of them knew in their hearts—just as she knew—that Darnassus would one day burn to ashes. All they could do, in their rage, was make these poor souls suffer.

They had used their power not to win a battle or buy time for their people’s evacuation, but to inflict pain and nothing else. Their fury had stripped away every civilized pretense, every semblance of honor, and they had shown who they truly were.

That was what war did. That was what it was for: to give civilized beings permission to do the unthinkable. Only then could you achieve the impossible.

Sylvanas had learned that the hard way. Too many others probably never could.

Before even fighting Malfurion for the final time, and before realizing that she had walked away like a James Bond villain without making sure Malfurion had been killed, Robert Brooks had already let us know that Sylvanas was intending to burn Teldrassil, and even more so was having Sylvanas justify it as part of her greater obfuscated goal of achieving the impossible by doing the unthinkable that was only revealed later with Shadowlands.

Robert Brooks later specifically had Sylvanas describe her intentions in ways that word for word match the modern definitions of genocide:

This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people. Even the loss of one leader would have been enough to create a tide of despair. The wounds of this battle would have bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the Alliance from the inside out. Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.

But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.

And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.

This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope. Their wound would heal.

Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us.

And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow. And she wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective.

Sylvanas’s anger grew cold.

She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all.

In addition, Robert Brooks again foreshadowed that Sylvanas had a secret true objection that she was only using the Horde for, goals that Elune and forces that we only end up meeting in Shadowlands opposed. Effectively, Robert Brooks wrote into A Good War how Sylvanas had intended to burn Teldrassil all along, and she was only forced to have it done out in the open rather than whatever quieter way she was going to have it done while dragging out her war to kill as many people as possible.

Robert Brooks’ subtle writing went over the heads of a lot of people because it was written in such a way that doesn’t make any sense without context that wasn’t revealed until more than a year later at the Blizzcon Shadowlands announcement.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Amadis-draka

Sylvanas systematic lies to Saurfang

There is, to my knowledge, nothing in game nor in supplemental media to say that anything Sylvanas did in AGW- except the secret alterior motive (which is still officially secret) that Nathanos and Sylvanas shared in the invasion- was in fact a deception. There is nothing but a misinterpreted moment where Brooks uses poetic forshadowing, to suggest Sylvanas always intended to burn the tree. A prolonged war, with UC still in play actually sends more souls to the Maw and keeps Sylvanas OUT of hell longer.

This is the fun conversation and its the conversation thst doesnt get much light because gEnoCides!

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Amadis-draka

She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all.

This quote is referring to her eventual falling out with Saurfang, as referenced earlier, as a result of his “honor”.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Amadis-draka

They had used their power not to win a battle or buy time for their people’s evacuation, but to inflict pain and nothing else. Their fury had stripped away every civilized pretense, every semblance of honor, and they had shown who they truly were.

This was in reference to a group of Night Elves who had tortured Horde troops.

Sylvanas had seen death in every form and circumstance. Bodies told a story. The evidence of the fallen’s horror was written in the footsteps that had crushed grass and leaves, in the soil that had been disturbed by roots leaping out of the ground to snare arms and legs, and, of course, in the scorched earth that marked where they had died.

A group of night elves—most, but not all, had been druids or magi—had been hiding in the depths of this thicket. When the pack of Horde troops passed by, the kaldorei had unleashed arrows, magic, blades, and every other instrument of war, wounding almost the entire raiding party. All thirty of the Horde had been brought down within seconds. The druids had called upon nature to subdue most of them, and the magi had trapped a few in ice. Perhaps one or two had died quickly. The

rest had been helpless—in pain, but alive.

And only then had the killing truly begun.

These Horde soldiers had not died in a flash of fire—they had burned slowly, in agony, screaming.

The night elves had done everything they could to prolong the horror, to maximize the pain.

Malfurion would be very upset to see what his people have done, Sylvanas thought. The wound is open. The bleeding has begun, but they use their hatred in such pitiful ways.

Quoting the portion you did really misses the entire context of it.

@Amadis-draka

Effectively, Robert Brooks wrote into A Good War how Sylvanas had intended to burn Teldrassil all along, and she was only forced to have it done out in the open rather than whatever quieter way she was going to have it done while dragging out her war to kill as many people as possible.

Where?

She strode toward the shoreline, ignoring the last few skirmishes and the wailing of those unfortunate kaldorei who had been unable to escape Darkshore. She studied the shape of Teldrassil towering above her in the moonslight. Soon, it would be in the hands of the Horde.

“Secure the beach,” Sylvanas said. “Prepare to invade the tree.”

A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one. There was no turning back.

“Why?”

The voice drew Sylvanas’s attention from the tree. It had come from a mortally wounded Sentinel, the very one Sylvanas had felled only minutes ago. She was coughing. Weak. Dying.

“Why? You’ve already won,” the night elf said, struggling to force the words out. “Only innocents remain in the tree.”

“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.

War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.

[Sinoa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

Only in Elegy, until that became the dominant narrative.

This forum: Christie Golden is a bad writer and blight on the current story

Also this forum: Runs with Golden’s story instead of Brooks

You think the reason she writes genocide is because she takes games scale too literal so the confirmed npc deaths make a bigger percentage of the population? (joking)

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

@Amadis-draka

Terran Gregory brought up the following

He says it had to make the players want to go to war, but war in Warcraft is, at the end of the day, a game and supposed to be fun. He doesn’t say that the people who pitched the burning of Teldrassil wanted to cause anguish and actual hatred for other players, just that they wanted to get everyone on board for a war. (He also doesn’t mention that the devs were probably looking for an excuse to cull the number of capitals anyway.)

It’s also possible that the devs were just not unified on how they wanted the war to be received. I really wonder whether the same person approved both the pop-up book and the other, much darker takes. Because no matter how serious the caption is, a pop-up book is still a freakin’ pop-up book.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

A prolonged war, with UC still in play actually sends more souls to the Maw and keeps Sylvanas OUT of hell longer.

A prolonged war was exactly what Sylvanas got, and she had likely planned to destroy the Undercity all along, given her monologue of wanting Anduin to recklessly attack her is exactly how it played out. By the time Saurfang confronted Sylvanas at Orgrimmar the Horde’s army had been whittled down to needing to recruit a civilian militia. She had fed the Maw with sufficient power to defeat Bolvar easily. She didn’t need to send any more souls to the Maw at that point. And her goal was not to stay out of the Maw at all, but to go back to it and break the Jailer out.

@Zarrín-zuljin

Quoting the portion you did really misses the entire context of it.

The context wraps back around to not be necessary to my point in this case, as it’s the same with the extended quotation:

That was what war did. That was what it was for: to give civilized beings permission to do the unthinkable. Only then could you achieve the impossible.

Sylvanas had learned that the hard way. Too many others probably never could.

Malfurion . . . even in his rage over the inevitable, he was not losing his composure. Perhaps he could not.

And that is why he will lose.

It’s all just Sylvanas telling herself she will win because she will do what others won’t because it’s unthinkable. Once again, being that Sylvanas was planning on burning the tree even before having fought Malfurion at Darkshore.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Pellex-hyjal

He doesn’t say that the people who pitched the burning of Teldrassil wanted to cause anguish and actual hatred for other players, just that they wanted to get everyone on board for a war.

Terran Gregory continued:

It had to be something so absolutely war inspiring. And because of that, we knew, right? We knew that it was going to hurt, in a narrative sense, right? And we immediately were thinking about the next chapter. The Night Elf’s part specifically we were going to feel like you took us off guard, we were unprepared for the assault Sylvanas brang, it was devastating all the way down to our core, and where are you going to feel in the next chapter point?

@Pellex-hyjal

(He also doesn’t mention that the devs were probably looking for an excuse to cull the number of capitals anyway.)

Given that Darnassus and Undercity are still entirely accessible in game it is unlikely the developers ever had intentions of reducing the number of capitals.

@Pellex-hyjal

Because no matter how serious the caption is, a pop-up book is still a freakin’ pop-up book.

The designer that Blizzard was lucky enough to be able to get for the pop-up book, Matthew Reinhart, has done pop-up books for everything from My Little Pony to Game of Thrones. Two particularly notable entries in his works include The Pop-Up Book of Phobias and The Pop-Up Book of Nightmares. The medium is not so limited.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Amadis-draka

Once again, being that Sylvanas was planning on burning the tree even before having fought Malfurion at Darkshore.

So Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil, before Malfurion escaped, when after she finds out Malfurion escaped, she has an internal monologue that portrays her trying to find a new path since his survival wouldn’t kill hope… which led to her ordering them to burn the tree.

You know it’s much easier just to accept Morghel’s answer and say it was retconned right?

I am sticking with my the theory that it’s nine folka piloting Sylvanas’ meat suit. They just swap who is driving at any point in time.

/it might only be five but whatever

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

(shrug) Well, perhaps you’re right. It’s all speculation. But it continues to strike me as weird. If they were always unified in the intention for this to be treated as a grand and solemn event, then they botched the roll-out in some ways (and what about that autumn party, too?).

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Mawthorne-lightninghoof

And that was a bad decision.

Why? I keep seeing people who say genocide was fine because Sylvanas thinks she’s in the right.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Pellex-hyjal

If they were always unified in the intention for this to be treated as a grand and solemn event, then they botched the roll-out in some ways (and what about that autumn party, too?).

Some people like dark subject matters, be they drama or humor.

Some people are surprised when other people don’t like dark subject matters, be they drama or humor.

[Dornheim-wyrmrest-accord]

Sorry, not interested in justifications for or attempting to sympathize with a mass murderer, torturer, liar and traitor. If that’s the direction Blizzard tries to take with with this book there will be backlash. Like trying to be an apologist for Goebbels or Goering. That crap ain’t gonna fly.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

This is the main reason why I am the last true Horde patriot. All the other players here are ashamed of killing their enemies(The Alliance). Lmao the only real shame is that we couldn’t finish of what we started with the night elves. Next time we leave no survivors. The Alliance will fall and their dominion over Azeroth will be broken for good. Never again will the Alliance be allowed to hold Azeroth in their grasp. This I vow. Lok’tar!

[Vanforth-wyrmrest-accord (Vanforth)]

I want this framed. This sums up my biggest point of annoyance with this company lately.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

You should play classic.

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

It was nice to see WoW’s signature tonal schizophrenia extends to the whole multimedia franchise and not just the games, though.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

@Zarrín-zuljin

Malfurion would be very upset to see what his people have done, Sylvanas thought.

Not from what I’ve seen lol