There are already plenty of comments explaining how problematic the new system will be so I’m not going to rehash it all, but I see the biggest problem is players being declined a vote to leave are going to be bitter and play poorly. This will be easy to do subtly (don’t use kicks/defensives/“accidentally” fail that skip/pull too big as a tank/etc). As a healer I can go in full raid parsing mode and let the group die while having high HPS…just don’t use defensives/DR’s, stand in bad to pad meters, and then choose not to heal people quite so much during critical moments. We already have people who do the “fake” disconnect when they want to leave so how is this new system going to change anything?
The kicker is that I don’t think this problem even exists. It exists in the same way that intentional griefers exist in m+. Yes, there are people that do it, but it’s rare. The overwhelming majority of time someone leaves in m+ it’s justified because the key has no chance of being timed. People aren’t regularly leaving timeable keys and I’ve pugged thousands of keys, have never been the first to leave, and I am someone who hates when people leave when I still think there is a chance to time it… even if that chance is low.
Something also happened today in a dungeon that reinforced my belief that this is a non issue. I was pugging a 12 ToP with a tank that I’ve recently become acquainted with. We pull the first 3 mobs. Once they die we pull the next rager mob by itself. Then we full wipe on the boss at around 50%. We go to Xav’s wing and pull first 3 mobs by itself and then the miniboss by itself. The next pull we fight the miniboss on the right side directly where the captain patrols. That pack aggros and we all die. Unsurprisingly, the dps leave, 2 of them almost at the same time. I’m in voice with the tank and he is surprised and angry at them for leaving and blaming them for downgrading his key. I don’t even know what to say because there was absolutely no chance we were timing the key and it made me wonder how many people complaining about leavers are people who are also mad at justified leaving.
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Why not vote for them to leave? What’s the cost to the group in this new system if the vote passes?
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I could see something happening where a person who wants to leave after seeing one thing they don’t like calls for a vote to leave, the vote doesn’t go through, so then they start trolling with bad pulls until everyone else gets frustrated and passes the vote.
I’ve never really had an issue with the whole leaver thing anyway though, but that’s probably because I mostly play at a level where people are finishing for the rewards/vault, not just pushing for higher rating.
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Same. I do LOTS of keys in that range…from +2 to +10…just for fun and I very rarely see unjustified leaving.
There is no cost because you’re describing a situation when everyone wants to leave. The problem occurs when a minority of players want to leave and the vote fails.
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This is a boogeyman. It’s such an absurdly uncommon thing and in no way justifies a game system to deal with it.
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It clearly does exist at a rate Blizzard doesn’t like otherwise they wouldn’t be putting resources into it. I think I trust their data more than your anecdotal evidence.
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You’re assuming this is a data informed decision. It wouldn’t be the first time blizzard has implemented changes based purely on public outcry.
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I guess I have to ask how was the key listed, completion, timed, or nothing specific?
Perhaps the tank wanted to finish it just for his vault and some crests.
Nothing specific. If it were listed as completion my story wouldn’t really make sense. He was blaming them for downgrading his key. He was upset that it was depleted.
So some of the group assumed it was timed, that tank thought it was completion… miscommunication from the get go.
A vote would have given you all time to talk it out
He said he was upset about the depletion he may have felt better if it was completed
I was in voice with the tank. He never mentioned anything about completion. He was legitimately surprised at probably one of the most justified instances of leaving I’ve seen lately. Honestly, the whole system doesn’t matter too much to me because I literally have never been the first to leave a key. If someone else wants to put a vote to leave and I think the key is miserable I’ll happily vote “yes”, but I’m not going to be the first to initiate that vote.
Youre right kick needs to have a punishment too then.
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He never mentioned anything about completion but the the fact that he was suprised people left when it was clearly not timetable seems to indicate he felt that way.
He just had no idea how long dungeons took. We had just done a rookery where we had 14 minutes left in the final area…like near 3 chest territory and he asks me in voice if I think we will time the key. When I first grouped with him a couple days ago he hadn’t done anything higher than a 7 or 8 and he’s not the sweatiest of players.
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The biggest complaints are by two groups of people.
The first group are people doing keys that are above their skill level and getting mad because they can’t force people to carry them.
The second group is people getting mad because they don’t realize the key is done and there isn’t any point in trying to waste time. It’s much better to reset the key and go again
This in turn causes this “issue” to blow up out of proportion because it’s people that don’t know what they are doing.
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Still more reliable than an uninformed opinion. Besides, what’s the worst case scenario, this isn’t a problem and nobody gets the mark of shame? Seems like a low risk implementation to me.
I’ve seen many good questions being asked about implementation details because those will be quite important, but I have yet to actually see a halfway decent argument about why it shouldn’t be implemented altogether. You can tell the ones arguing against it are the first to be bearing that mark.
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So if it’s not an issue, and you realize it isn’t an issue what’s the problem?
People get a mark of some sort in the group listing, but you don’t really seem to mind if people leave keys so you can go on inviting them. And you yourself don’t leave so you won’t get the mark.
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It’s not a problem for me at all, but it’s a potential problem for groups that have someone intentionally griefing the run wasting time for everyone. My problem is in the title, I think it’s a poor solution to a non existent problem…and I DO mind if people leave when the key is timeable and I get annoyed if it’s a borderline case…but I acknowledge that the vast majority of these borderline cases it is more likely than not a deplete, but I guess I’m an optimist.
It’s not possible for Blizzard to have data on how often people are leaving keys that are still timeable. It simply isn’t a metric you can track. Players who can judge when a key is no longer timeable are only able to do so because of their experience being applied to the very specific collection of variables that exist within their current run. It’s a lateral process that computers aren’t very good with.
What Blizzard can know is how often people leave keys, and how often people feel their keys fail due to leavers if they decided to poll that. The former is a virtually useless metric, and the latter is not much better given how bad the majority of players are at judging whether a key is still timeable. To be clear, if 80% of players are utterly incapable of making this judgement it still means every group is averaging one player who can, even if it also makes crowd-sourcing this data a fruitless endeavor.
What Blizzard would have to do for this information is find players who are capable of making this judgement, verifying that ability, and then polling those players. They can verify their ability to make that judgement by having them run keys over and over, making a note of when they think a key is bricked, but continuing anyhow to see if they were correct. Gather a sufficient number of these players and ask them how frequently people leave a timeable key and you’ll have a ballpark answer.
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Did you all ever stop to think bad players need time too?
With the way the system is setup it works against them so hard. Even with this change it still works against them so VTK isn’t exactly a solution.
My point is, being forced to do a key without someone “bad” at least gives them experience. Better yet, you might try to communicate with them rather then outright leave the key. I know, I know, a crazy concept.
Expectations in M+ are too high, even in the +2 range. Something’s gotta give.
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