New community council has Story/Lore section

[Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Like adding black elves or black dwarves. Each in the original story everybody was white, since this is an adaptation its perfectly understandable you want to add diversity to it but for god’s sake respect the source material. And if you are going to add your diverse cast that deviates from the source material then do the world building for it.

Worlds Smallest Violin

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

I was just about to reply to that tbh.

I don’t understand it, white people don’t need a reason to exist so why does everyone else, people can sit there and really just radiate sus vibes because they somehow can’t imagine how in settings w dragons etc etc black people and other minorities exist. It’s odd to me Blood Elves live in perpetual spring (or summer?) the SUNWELL and all our Sun themes and people really can sit there and be like “but how do non white elves exist”??

What??? Anyways Blizzard said that non white people don’t need weird special conditions to exist and simply do exist and that they’ve always seen their world as diverse just simply hasn’t reflected in game until SL etc and I’m fine with that, it feels weird people can’t accept it and move on.

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

@Radomir-wyrmrest-accord

However, I see some problems with it in certain races. With Night elves, if you’re Korean, do you identify with them because they have Korean motifs?

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

I hope that offers clarity.

I think this post was really well written idk if you missed it

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

I don’t understand it, white people don’t need a reason to exist so why does everyone else

Any people written into a story need a reason to exist. Its called world building.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

I don’t understand it, white people don’t need a reason to exist so why does everyone else

It’s hilarious when you think about it.

Since Vanilla, night elves have had skin tones from light pink almost-caucasian to dark purple, hitting some blues along the way. No explanation needed.

Darkspears have had skin tones along the greens and blues, light or dark, and no explanation needed.

Goblins have some variety, draenie get a pretty good selection of near-white to blue and purple, pasndaren can have fox-like tails for no reason at all. All good, nothing to question here.

But the white-people races suddenly have brown skin tones?

“We need a justification for that now!! Please Blizzard, justify brown people existing in my warcraft!! It’s totally not a racism thing, but you owe us an explanation now!! Where is the lore explanation for dark people??? Justify the existence of these non-whites immediately!!!”

[Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord]

Can you definitively prove that there weren’t already differently skin colored elves and dwarves? Like a line of text saying that all elves and dwarves are white? Or is this a schrodingers cat thing where if you haven’t seen something yet clearly that means it doesn’t exist?

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

I’m a huge ASOIAF fan and those same type of people were literally having breakdowns bcz of House of the Dragon casting black actors, like and the issue is being mad because what exactly??? It’s not a good look or okay when did non white people become assumed not a part of fantasy or medieval settings.

Also the new Anne Boleyn show people were being really weird like how many times has Cleopatra been white and like no one bats an eye.

[Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord]

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

But the white-people races suddenly have brown skin tones?

“We need a justification for that now!! Please Blizzard, justify brown people existing in my warcraft!! It’s totally not a racism thing, but you owe us an explanation now!! Where is the lore explanation for dark people??? Justify the existence of these non-whites immediately!!!”

damn i swear if people complained about actual story problems as soon as they popped up as much as black elves being in the game perhaps the story would be more damn coherent lol.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

It’s not a good look or okay when did non white people become assumed not a part of fantasy or medieval settings.

The weird thing to me is; WoW already had humans and dwarves with some lighter brown skin tones. The option existed, just very poorly. But suddenly they get more melanin and it’s a whole big issue!

@Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord

damn i swear if people complained about actual story problems as soon as they popped up as much as black elves being in the game perhaps the story would be more damn coherent

Well hey now, those people do also complain about the story too.

They just get more vociferous when un-white elves come running around.

… I’m’a go bring Alynsa to the barber shop for the first time in years now.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord

Can you definitively prove that there weren’t already differently skin colored elves and dwarves?

That isn’t the point that is being presented. In the books and for the more casual fans of LOTR that got into from the movies every dwarf kingdom and elf kingdom’s people are shown as white and given description of white. So if new information and groups of elves/dwarves are being introduced, then there needs to be world building to explain. Thats one of the challenges of presenting changes to an existing source material.

And my comment wasn’t specifically addressing just LOTR alone. In Dragon Prince show on Netflix there are the Sun Elves who have dark brown skin and golden eyes. Thats just how the story decided to showcase that subset of elves.
There are also the Moon Elves in that show who have your typical white skin and fair hair.
Both of these elf groups have their own territory, lore and background information that went into their world building.

The new LOTR show runners seem to want to expand the universe and make it more inclusive. And so I encourage them to take a page out of the Dragon Prince show and do actual world building.

Diversity in a medieval fantasy setting is complicated since travel is complicated in the world building. Using the Dragon Prince example again it is shown the human kingdoms… unlike the Elves are very multi ethnic and less hereditary when it comes to bloodlines.
Why?
Because in the lore all the humans all over the world were pushed to one corner of it. Completely uprooting them and remaking these kingdoms from the big mixing of peoples and their cultures presumebly.

In Sci-fi diversity is much less complicated since people can move around quickly with planes and spaceships. Honestly, whenever I get into conversations like this it seems the people who push for these low effort inclusions have very little interest in fantasy world building.

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

I find it odd how you’re trying to complain from a lore perspective and when someone asks

@Emmiana-wyrmrest-accord

Can you definitively prove that there weren’t already differently skin colored elves and dwarves? Like a line of text saying that all elves and dwarves are white?

Suddenly it’s not the lore perspective you’re arguing from it’s something else now

But the bottom line is you have a hard time coming to terms with non white people existing is what I got.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

Suddenly it’s not the lore perspective you’re arguing from it’s something else now

Perhaps I wasn’t clear.
Let me try again.

In lord of the rings you had several races ranging from fantasy like Elves and Dwarves to regular humans.
Regular humans also had differences depending on the regions they were from, like the ones with darker skin from the east and south.
See? Thats called world building.
Nobody says different ethnicities of humans do not exist but we do have reasons for them existing.

If the show runners want to give the same diversity that humans have for elves and dwarves then they need to do a similar world building exercise to explain their existence. The reason why the “white elves” don’t need explaining is because they already got explained. Since they got introduced first.

I tried giving you an example of a diversity of elves existing in another media that right from the start they had dark skinned elves and to justify their existence they gave them a kingdom, religion, social hierarchy just as they did with their white skinned elves. So both elf races got a similar world building to explain their existence.

If you are a fan of fantasy you would understand the need for world building.
Why is skipping world building a good thing? Its one of the fundamental foundations of a fantasy story.

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

But the bottom line is you have a hard time coming to terms with non white people existing is what I got.

And I don’t think you care about what goes into world building or a good fantasy.
And I will save you time before you start calling me a white supremacist. I ain’t white.

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

And I will save you time before you start calling me a white supremacist. I ain’t white.

???

One I have never seen you post before like a day ago, so idk like I wouldn’t know your posts from anyone else but they def give very sus vibes when did we got to the point of you now telling me my posts, I’m normally in GD.

That said I wanna take this time to point out not everyones an ally even to other members of their communities, I’m Filipino and listen I do not speak for or condone my great grandma (not to be confused w my grandma) but she does not like other Filipino people and is very critical, as a gay male I’ve met other gay males who have what’s obviously internalized homophobia. Anyways just felt pertinent

[Zandrae-wyrmrest-accord (Zandrae)]

Using an excuse of tHe SoUrCe MaTeRiAl as an excuse for no representation or to demand that nonwhite noncisgender nonheterosexual people require justification is yikes⁹⁰⁰¹.

It’s not a good look. It’s in fact invoking a sense of vicarious embarrassment.

You can cope. The showrunners are going to do what the showrunners are going to do. Don’t watch it if you don’t like it.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Zandrae-wyrmrest-accord

Using an excuse of tHe SoUrCe MaTeRiAl as an excuse for no representation or to demand that nonwhite noncisgender nonheterosexual people require justification is yikes⁹⁰⁰¹.

Especially when said source material was written by a man who admitted later in his life that he regretted some of his racist beliefs.

It’s a strange hill to die on, but it’s the one some people choose.

[Lannisterian-tichondrius]

Zan

Always swooping in with your wisdoms

[Dornheim-wyrmrest-accord]

I mean the LotR show will suck because every hack writer, including the ones writing WoW, tries to ape GoT which has become a narrative grimderp blight on fantasy. The LotR mythos is so thematically removed from that kind of cheap shlock that combining the two is mixing oil and water.

That’s what is gonna make it suck, not the inclusion of black Elves.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

I made my arguments as to why any POC additions require just as much as world building as the “white” versions of these fantasy races got.
its called world building.

Since so far I have not heard any counter arguments besides “Its bad because I said so” I presume there are no actual valid counter arguments.

[Zandrae-wyrmrest-accord (Zandrae)]

@Lannisterian-tichondrius

swooping in

Basically me.

@Smallioz-kromcrush

I made my arguments as to why any POC additions require just as much as world building as the “white” versions of these fantasy races got.
its called world building.

Since so far I have not heard any counter arguments besides “Its bad because I said so” I presume there are no actual valid counter arguments.

That’s a funny way to spell an excuse.

You have yet to make a valid argument to counter?

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Zandrae-wyrmrest-accord

That’s a funny way to spell an excuse.

Either address the argument or don’t bother.
I like fantasy and one of its most important aspects is world building.

Maybe you don’t share that interest and thats fine so this isn’t important to you.
That’s fine. People’s interests can differ.
But word of advice this isn’t twitter so your rhetoric sposting doesn’t do much good.