The new fancy build planner for SL is out on WoW head where you can make your build and share it with friends. Guess what is in it?
The Build Planner Has 4 Key Areas
Talents
Soulbinds
Legendaries
Trinkets
That’s right if you didn’t know the direction of SL then the build planner should say all as Trinkets are now considered part of your BUILD. You can feast your eyes on all the new trinkets and some as you know are very powerful. Didn’t know there was a trinket that reduced your covenant ability by 20% think I will take that one
Terrible design. There’s enough systems for this incompetent balance “team” to worry about already. No reason to add more things.
If this game was an RPG, I could play any class as any race like I can in D&D.
If this game was an RPG, I could get BIS gear by only crafting like I could in older MMO’s.
If this game was an RPG, I could get BIS gear by only PvPing like I could in older MMO’s
If this game was an RPG, I could get BIS gear by only doing dungeons like I can in D&D.
If this game was an RPG, I could main heal as a hybrid DPS spec like I could in vanilla.
If this game was an RPG, I could tank as a hybrid DPS like i could in vanilla-wotlk.
If this was an RPG, jack of all trade specs would exist like druid and paladin in vanilla.
If this game was an RPG, I could log in and make my own adventure for character progression like I could in Vanilla and older MMORPGs, instead of following Blizzards pre-planned daily/weekly chore schedule following their exact pre-planned progression path.
Get it into your thick skull: This is not an RPG, this is a themepark MMO.
Short definition of RPG
RPG = gear based game or power progression
RPG games are games where you can customize your character through power progression of leveling, systems and gear.
Any time I reference RPG I am 99% of the time talking about power progression and gear. So RPG just isn’t abut deciding class/race etc its about the actual progression of those classes/races.
No reason to be upset because you don’t understand what we are talking about when referencing RPGs. If you don’t like RPG games you shouldn’t play games based on gear and power progression. Hope you find some happiness instead of silly insults.
If a game has character customization thru power progression which includes gear progression, leveling and systems. It is in fact an RPG.
My favorite RPG PvP game of all time was Diablo 2. Very gear dependent game but dam was it fun to make OP builds. So please start to understand I play RPG games because I want a gear/power advantage. That is what makes them fun.
In all honesty, SLs looks to cater to people like me that heroic raids, does m+15, and tries to push myself in rated. I will get the cream off the top from each gearing source and have access to all the trinkets and gizmos the game offers provided I get enough play time in each week to access it all.
However, it really sucks for those that don’t have that access and hindered by time constraints or just desire and interest in pve. Ion says you can get 95% as powerful doing only your preferred form of content than someone that does all 3. After looking at some of these trinkets I have serious doubt. Many of them are major game changers. 95% would be acceptable if true. It just doesn’t look to be true if bfa is of any comparison to how they will tune pve trinkets.
FFXI is my all time favorite game ever, it’s the most RPG MMO ever. You should play it, gear is completely insane there but obtainable and fun to min/max. I have to have swap gear with every action I make and make an entire xml document to execute based on my actions
Shadowlands is a step in the correct direction, I really, really, really like covs/legendaries/conduits/soulbinds but gear is far too impactful in PvP for me. It’s not fun to outgear, or be outgeared.
WoW has leveling, character customization and power progression thru items. Whether you like it or not WoW is in fact an RPG game. Just like whether you like it or not gravity does in fact exist. WoW is an RPG and always will be however it’s better if we really get back to our core RPG roots which means really fun gear and tons of powerful customization options.
PS - No idea why you are going off on this tantrum. All I did was objectively list the new build planner and state what Ion said. Don’t get mad at me.
RPG was an acronym that stood for Role Playin Game in the mid 1970’s when they first came out. You have to understand what fits into that umbrella of RPG which is the rise of gear based progression, leveling and even single player games. If it is a gear based game with leveling it is an RPG.
No worries I have only played RPG online games the last 20 years. It’s what I love! If it’s not an RPG then I don’t bother. Diablo 2 really is what got me addicted to online RPG games in 2000 and I never turned back. D2 is an ARPG as I said and its a gear farming game which excites me. To attain powerful items and theorycraft some crazy OP build then own up PvP with it.
So when I am looking for a great RPG to play I am looking for a game that has amazing gear/power progression.
gear progression is meant to simulate a progression in skill. think back to 8bit games, you can’t show your character getting more skilled at killing stuff when they use the same sword slash animation for everything. power progression was created to show that the character is can now easily handle lower level mobs. another trick to help this along is often an RPG’s first boss will become a mini elite npc later in the game.
power progression was never an intended design and was a result of the limited architecture for video game design 30 years ago.
wow’s pvp model has true skill progression, gear progression is not needed.
That just isn’t true. I am here for RPG PvP if you remove the RPG then it’s just boring PvP. Sorry but if gear doesn’t matter there is just no reason to PvP in this game. Now you may disagree with that but there is a majority of players that will disagree with you which is why Templates can’t work and almost everyone hated Scaling.
Keep in mind my favorite RPG PvP game of all time is Diablo 2. I started this game in TBC and it had some good RPG qualities to get me into it and friends kept asking me to start and since D3 wasn’t out I made the jump into an MMORPG.
I am always looking for RPG PvP games… So i don’t play MOBAs…FPS etc where there is no awesome gear or power progression. I think they are really boring. The fantasy for me is attaining godly power then PvPing with it and why I love RPGs.
gear progression is not synonymous with RPG though, there are plenty of RPGs without gear progression. what you are specifically talking about is stat progression games, of which there are stat games that aren’t even RPGs.
you can even have stat progression without power progression while still maintaining customization and itemization, with or without the RPG elememt.
but lets be clear, RPG stands for role playing game, and is a separate distinction from gear progression. such as how destiny is a first person mmo and wow is a 3rd person mmo. you wouldn’t call doom an mmo just because destiny is first person.
do you know what i’ve been doing this prepatch? i took flarkness’ build and i’ve been going into epics and exploding whole teams, im not even in any particularly awesome gear. an ounce of skill will take you farther than a pound of gear.
Yes gear progression is though as it fits under the umbrella of what RPG stands for. If you made an RPG because you wanted it to be purely role playing then fine. However gear progression games are RPGs.
Gear based games are RPG games there are a lot of them whether MMO or Action. If you disagree then good luck with that but not going to argue if you don’t believe the facts. I love RPG games because I love gear and power progression it’s been that way for 20 years for me and will continue for many more.
I love RPG PvP don’t fault me for it and that is why I am here. Remove the gear from PvP then there is no reason to play this game. It’s that simple.
Now as for the Topic make your build with the build planner you have a lot of RPG options of gear and power progression. If that isn’t for you then perhaps you don’t like RPG games.
“In my experience, it’s always been done this way.”
Look man, I get it, you like gearing up. For a lot of games, predominantly single player experiences, or experiences solely against AI opponents, this works. In fact, I love the PvE aspect of WoW because even though I sometimes get the uber shaft by ol’ RNJesus, the overall experience of gaining power to overcome more difficult foes meshes well with the learning curve of adapting to new boss fights and mechanics.
From a PvP perspective, though, the last 16 years of WoW has shown us that it’s maybe not so great an experience. It just leads to a lot of problems. Heck, there’s a reason why PvP was effectively abandoned in Diablo 3… they just couldn’t find a way to balance it but still have the crazy-insane builds we’ve all come to know and love.
So maybe “because that’s how we’ve always done it” isn’t the best approach… especially when applying game mechanics to something that hasn’t always been done. To my knowledge, there aren’t really a lot of heavy PvP focused MMO games out there. The best one I can think of is Guild Wars 2, and even they downplay gear in the PvP side of the game fairly significantly.
So perhaps it’s time to adjust our preconceptions for how things have to be, simply because they carry a title that each of us have varying expectations for, and embrace the idea that a game that works and is fun is more appealing than one that adheres to our notions ow “how things should be” but is a terrible experience save for only a select few.
Or not… I mean, what’s another 16 years of the same ol’ thing?
Diablo 3 wasn’t really even an Diablo expansion. They abandoned a lot of things in that game and didn’t keep true to the Diablo core. Lets be honest there.
You don’t need balance for great or fun PvP. Look at Diablo 2 the best PvP game of all time. Extremely fun but the balance was attaining gear to counter another build. Which is fine in an RPG game.
The best PvP in WoW was TBC where it had stronger RPG and gear roots where items helped form the build.
Look at the horrible experiments like Templates that gave us the worst PvP expansion. No thanks. Stop trying to change the game into something its not. The core of this game and games like it is Gear and that is why we are here…
Our preconceptions are deal breakers. If gear doesn’t matter in this game there is no reason to play. Period. There is ZERO wiggle room on this. Not sure how you don’t understand that. If they brought back Templates that would be an automatic uninstall because PvP would be unplayable for a majority of players. That is why they aren’t going to do it.
role playing games have you take on a role, either through the creation of your own character, or by playing a premade character.
the first half is easy, wow, skyrim, plenty of games let you create a custom character.
the second half? well, where do you draw the line? if i dont particularly care for the story of final fantasy 7 or any of the characters and am only playing it to say i did, is that a role playing game? i certainly didn’t get lost in the fantasy, i probably get more of that from tomb raider and devil may cry than from final fantasy or castlevania.
what about stat games? armored core runs circles around wow for building and tuning. towards its later iterations gets really complex with multiple resources to manage. and there is also progression(you start off with a crappy ac and over time build it better) there’s a game world, there some characters, but you never really get the sense that you are role playing, and it has your favorite model: spend hours building the ultimate godlike robot and then go blow stuff up with it, too bad its 20 years too old for modern multiplayer.
but all this aside, you really just want to be able to gear to win and not have skill be the determining factor.
You very specifically like very rigid, gear based progression that gives you the edge over your opponents. You’re less interested in your own personal ability to master your class and are more interested in being able to immerse yourself in a time sink to obtain the build you want, at which point you can then test that build to see it’s effectiveness in your desired scenario.
Look man, I get it, you know what you like… but WoW is not that! In fact, what you seem to like is pretty much PvE, except once you’re done doing all the PvE things you want to then see if you can beat another player with it. If you can’t, it’s right back to PvE grinding.
I mean, you tout Diablo 2 as the “best PvP game of all time”, yet is it not effectively 1v1 duels where all advantage is gained through gear, obtained via grinding content over and over until RNG gives you what you want? That’s not a PvP game, that’s a PvE game with a dueling component, and if that’s what you want, strap on your best raid gear and head on out to the gates of Stormwind and go to town, my friend.
It might be good to take a look at the things you’re saying. You’re very vehemently describing what you want, and honestly, I respect that you like different things than I do. However, what you want does not define a genre. RPGs can exist without gear based progression… just maybe not RPGs that you want to play.
Of course I join RPG games looking for a power advantage over players that is the point. However once you attain that power you are indeed supposed to master your class.
RPG PvP is a 2 stage process
attain tremendous power to compete
attain skills around that power
The analogy I look at is look at Thanos destroying Thor in the first encounter. Did Thor rush right back in to battle? NO! He went to attain a god killing hammer so he could fight Thanos. That is what an RPG is where it is a blend of power, skills and wits. You first need powerful items to fight.
If they introduced a one of a kind weapon called the sword of the Ancient ones and I couldn’t beat that player cause he had that sword that is perfectly balanced and fair. So I must find a way to achieve a counter power or build then master my class to defeat him. That is RPG at it’s finest and what made Diablo 2 so great.
It’s an RPG PvP game. I love RPG PvP.
This game can’t exist without gear based progression and it’s PvP is pointless without it. You have to come to terms with the fact that the majority of the player base wants to attain shiny things that give them power over another player in PvP. That is why these systems that remove the RPG component of the game like Templates/Scaling are universally hated. It’s not like we didn’t try what you wanted. We tried it and it failed miserably!!
This game has to be about attaining power to be competitive first then mastering your class around that power.
“If you find yourself in a fair fight…then your tactics suck”
