Sandbox =/= rpg
Right, and I can’t stress this enough, that is the thing you want, so you actively seek that experience. However, the thing you want does not define the genre.
RPG games can (and do) exist outside of gear based progression, you just don’t prefer them. It’s important that you understand this, because the premise of your argument in this thread is, “RPGs have be this way because that’s what an RPG is!” When, in reality, your argument is, “I value RPG games that are a certain way, and I think WoW should adhere more strictly to those values.”
It’s an important distinction.
By the way, have you played Classic? Honestly, it sounds like exactly the kind of PvP that’s right up your alley. It’s very focused on a style of PvP and character progression that, while isn’t something that I’m super keen on, from what you’ve described in this thread it sounds very much up your alley.
Under no circumstances would I describe Diablo 2 as a PvP game. In the same way that I wouldn’t describe Blades of Steel on the NES as a fighting game.
You and I have a different expectation of tactics within the context of a video game, yet both can (and do) fit within the context of an RPG.
www.blackdesertonline. com/
go here
Stop playing WoW, go play KMMO’s. You do not belong here.
A lot of players do actually believe that “ is what I like, therefore it is good for the game, and everyone should be forced to play the game as I want it.”
Such a tunnel vision view of the game precludes consideration of whether those other people will be having fun, because is simply the right way to play the game, and any other way of playing or desire to play differently is not only wrong, it goes against the Natural Order Of Things™ and should be punished.
And so we come round full circle. Abomb guy is the equivalent of the guy who only ever raided on LFR difficulty before doing a few heroic raids and getting carried to a few mythic bosses, who comes to the forum to start a thread “Remove LFR, it’s destroying raiding, guilds, and everything that is holy!”
Apparently the only thing that matters in the game is blind obedience to authority. The only fun anyone is permitted to have is in knowing that you blindly obeyed the arbitrary demands of strangers better than lesser mortals. And trashed them for wanting to have the wrong kind of fun.
If a game is designed to exploit the many to elevate a few to the point where it’s fun, it will fail. It doesn’t matter if you think your being elevated to some state of videoimmortality is what you deserve. Destroying the experience of the many means that they’ll stop playing.
And…
Is that you, Clàrk?
Yea but WoW will NEVER EVER be one of those games so I don’t get the repeated bringing this up? It’s honestly pointless to try and make WoW into something it’s not. Blizzard tried your way with Templates/Scaling and it didn’t work. They were hated by the majority of players because we want gear progression to matter.
I can’t stress this enough this isn’t about me. It’s about World of Warcraft and the majority of players are here for gear/power progression.
That kind of PvP is more up my alley but Vanilla is a pretty shallow rough game where TBC is really what I am looking forward too where this game had the best PvP going into Wrath.
You are missing the point. Diablo 2’s PvP was RPG PvP. It’s the only PvP that matters. So removing RPG from the game means PvP isn’t playable.
Why? Because it can’t be, or because it’s not what you want to play? See the recurring theme here? WoW is a computer game… it can do whatever Blizzard wants, and often that’s exactly what happens. You or I may not like it, but that doesn’t prevent it from changing.
Actually, I and many others thought templates were great. The only problem with templates was that the stat distribution was assumed across the board, which didn’t work for all classes.
“The majority of players” is kind of a misleading statement, because some folks agree with your viewpoint, and want to just chase gear upgrades, and some folks agree with my viewpoint and just want to compete in skill based PvP where losing because you’re out geared isn’t a thing that exists.
WoW has leaned towards either of these extremes many times over the years.
I suspect those are coming. Honestly, I’m glad they exist, and I’ve certainly had some fun times in Classic. My point is that, perhaps more appropriately than others saying “Go play this other game”, you have a version of WoW you can play that gives you a play style you want, so why do you need retail to adhere to that too? Why can’t retail exist as a place where gear maybe matters less, and where players can focus on other aspects of that role playing fantasy?
By the way, TBC is a foregone conclusion, and I would be very surprised if WotLK wasn’t in the works too 
Please understand this. WoW can’t be what you want because it’s not what the people want or the Devs. The players want gear progression and the Devs want it too.
I also can’t be more clear on this next point. This isn’t about me or what I want since this isn’t even my main RPG game. The fact is that the majority of players will always reject your idea of what WoW should be. The majority of players want gear progression. History has proven this.
If they added Templates back I would uninstall immediately again and just play my main game. They won’t add Templates though because it goes against the RPG nature of the game and too many people would also leave. Not just me. The Devs said Templates were wrong.
As we discuss this topic I’m actually playing my main RPG that I play several hours a day while waiting for SL. Now SL does look promising and very RPG and Scaling is gone which is huge. So a lot of RPG players are interested in SL.
The Devs had made perfectly clear what type of game this is and so have the players. That is why we play this game and removing that means a mass exodus of players to other games.
I don’t think they will develop that type of mini-game for you and the few players that want it.
Just want to say 8.3 BFA was the longest I have played since WoD. It had a lot of power gains that brought me back after a year away. I didn’t play most of BFA I only played a few weeks of Legion but had to uninstall since gear didn’t matter. When you eliminate what is important to this game players leave. Just like I did then come back when Blizzard reverses their bad decisions or introduces something cool.
Except it clearly is what some people want. It’s what some people have been advocating for many years now, and what the Devs have, to some extend or another, implemented.
So perhaps the thing that you want isn’t what everybody wants, just what some people want?
And that’s fine, because personal preference is a thing that exists, but the point you seem to be missing is that the core of your argument is that the words RPG mean a certain thing, but you seem unable to acknowledge that this is you projecting your preferences and not an argument grounded in what those words actually mean.
Haha if I’ve learned one thing having been a WoW player over the last 16 years, it’s that the WoW devs never make anything perfectly clear. I can guarantee you that whatever statement you think lends perfect clarity to what also happens to be your preferred point of view has, in reality, been carefully crafted to deliver a vague statement that leaves enough wiggle room to be interpreted in many different ways.
Confirmation bias is a very real thing.
Truth be told, it would actually make things a lot easier if Blizzard took very clear and decisive stances on things, saying “Yes, we want to encourage this type of play.” or “No, this is not what we want for this game at this time.”
I didn’t suggest a mini-game for retail, I suggested that retail be allowed to continue on its current trend towards a gear agnostic PvP experience, and those of you who want gear-based PvP enjoy the Classic/TBC/WotLK track that is unfolding just for you. Still though, lets explore that a little more…
Just because you don’t want it doesn’t mean nobody does. I want it, a lot of other folks want it too. I’m not the first person to come along and desire a PvP experience focused entirely on player skill and class mechanics. In fact, WoW has trended towards this very thing since MoP, moving further and further away from the vanilla style grind it used to be.
Now I know what you’re thinking… “Which is exactly why people quit!” And maybe, to an extent, that’s true… especially for people like you who like that kind of thing. However you also have the opposite, where people who don’t like that type of system are now being thrown back into it, and they will quit.
My point? Would a game that appealed to both be so bad? Imagine a game where you could choose to enter a gear-enabled BG, where you play with all the gear you’ve acquired and pit yourself against others doing the same, or you choose a scaled experience where everybody is on the same level and competes based on skill. The Division 2 has a system like this, so it’s not unprecedented either.
Key word there is “some” not the majority. Templates and Scaling were massive hated and a complete failure. At least we know they can’t work in this game. Be happy about that? It’s not like Blizzard didn’t try. If you disagree not sure what to say. This just is becoming pointless and repetitive.
I really don’t have a dog in this race dude. If you remove the RPG aspect of the game I just won’t play just like the majority of players. When I uninstalled in Legion and the survey asked why I was leaving I said I can’t play with Templates if you get rid of them I’ll be back.
Stop making this about me when it has nothing to do with me. 
I thought I made that abundantly clear.
Again I am actually not biased in this discussion. If they remove the RPG aspect of this game I just won’t play like I didn’t play much of the last expansions. You are unable to acknowledge that the Devs, Ion and majority of the players want this game to be able to have gear progression and full customization of their characters. So in SL Ion and the Devs intend to deliver on that.
How about No. The majority of players ( not me ) shouldn’t have to quit retail because they changed it from being World of Warcraft. Again you represent a vocal minority that wants this.
If WoW gets deleted tomorrow I’m fine. I don’t know how to make that abundantly more clear. I have a main MMORPG that I am playing and have been playing since 2016. However the majority of the player base and the Devs don’t agree with you. This isn’t about my thoughts on the matter but objectively discussing the player base and what they want as well as the Devs.
If you can’t take the time to actually process what I am typing then you are just trollling. Not going to waste my time saying the same thing over and over.
If they implement Templates the majority of players will quit or complain that this isn’t an RPG. History has proven this.
Here the final deal. If SL launches and it is a good RPG I will play! If it is bad I will leave again for another year and poke back in to see if it is good. What I do hope is for my friends and the majority of players is that SL is a really good RPG. I want the players to be happy. The majority of players will be happy if SL is a super fun RPG game.
If you don’t like it you can do what I did and find a game you do like. It’s not complicated. This seems to be a YOU problem and YOU are taking it out on the forums because YOU aren’t happy. Sometimes YOU just got to accept reality and facts.
Perhaps, in addition to not understanding what RPG means, you don’t understand what trolling means. Because I don’t agree with your views doesn’t mean I’m trolling you.
I suspect you just want everybody to agree with you, and to desire to play the kind of game you want to play. You seem unable to comprehend that the majority of players (yay, I can throw unverifiable generalizations too!) don’t want that. Furthermore, you seem unwilling to acknowledge that you already have a version of WoW that will deliver exactly what you want, but also that we can in fact coexist in a game that could easily support both styles of play.
I’ll be moving on now.
I understand what it means and have understood that since I only been playing RPGs for the last 20 years. You not agreeing with me doesn’t change my understanding of RPG games.
You aren’t listening to what I am saying and continue to ignore it then implement your own thoughts that aren’t relevant to the thread. So I have to keep saying it over and over. Literally the definition of trolling.
I don’t care what you or anyone thinks. I base my reason in logic regardless of anyone’s emotions or views. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
Yes I said that literally 10 times that is why I main another game. Yet you say I can’t comprehend stuff 
That just simply isn’t true though. There are no facts to back up your claim where in fact the majority of players hated Templates and Scaling. Ion and the Devs said that Templates are wrong for this game since it’s an RPG.
It isn’t about me though and this thread never was. I told you I don’t have a dog in this race dude. You are being silly and have no arguments.
SL is coming and it isn’t going to be what you want. You have a choice to make not me. This again is a YOU problem.
Because you can only argue about nothing for so long. 
wow is catering to the people that have the time to put in. when you have a job and a family well I guess thats just to bad its a choice job/family or wow. not really a hard choice
Im married, have 4 kids under the age of 5 and work 50+ hours a week. I don’t play until the kids go to bed at 8 and I usually play 8-10 every night.
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More than time , it’s if you have ppl to do content with. If you trying to pug everything , you will take a long time to do anything
Exactly. Playing this game without a fun group of friends would take a lot of fun out of it.