That is just not true though.
Maybe if it’s just some cannon fodder friend it is but not anything real.
If you put someone on a mechanic and he screws up and dies, it’s not easy to just pick it up and go.
Think ghuun orb running even on heroic. That will ruin your entire pull.
On heroic you don’t need 14 people to run orbs though. You can survive with one dummy
It’s kinda funny that you think that a larger group size makes things easier.
M+ is nothing but numbers. None of the mechanics are anywhere near as complex as what shows up in Mythic Raiding.
It’s just a dungeon after all. Cleave the adds. Kick whatever needs kicking. Stealth past the actually hard packs.
There ain’t that much more to it.
Your best is a singular timed 20, with zero raiding experience. Don’t @ me.
I’m not talking about Heroic though.
It’s allowed because you’re bad.
This is such a dillusional statement.
Players are players. Competence means literally nothing. I have been on both sides and experience doesn’t transfer between the two. In the end, either you know the strats or you don’t. A player that has proved themselves in one might be able to pick things up quicker, but they still need to understand what’s going on.
It’s kinda funny because that’s exactly that it is.
As a person who has excelled at both, that isn’t true. M+ scales and in many cases is non-linear. There are potentially 100’s of ways to complete the same task. Raid groups end up being homogenous with all classes being represented. For M+, strats change on the basis of what’s in the group.
The complexity is also compounded on the fact you have 25-35+ minutes to correctly execute a number of strats as opposed to one for 4-7 minutes.
K.
Already did the cutting edge thing last expansion and it wasn’t for me. Did the progression thing. Did the Mythic raiding thing. Have done it all. Will @ you all day because raiding is raiding. It hasn’t gotten harder.
Raiding has its difficulties and M+ does as well. Anyone who wants to try and diminish one and bash the other is a clown. You work any kids parties lately?
My experience has been greatly different. I see CE level Mythic raiders fail at breaking any higher than 15s all the time. God last week when we needed every raider to do a 19 was a hilarious mess. Generally high M+ pushers tend to pick up raiding faster than vice versa. There’s so much going on in M+ that a lot of it comes down to mastery of fundamentals, versus raiding which is a lot of rote memorization and ‘dancing’ as it were. A key pusher tends to just be better at avoiding damage, and doesn’t have the ‘aww shucks I just blew that attempt for us guys. I guess we’ll just reset and go again’ mentality. They’ll definitely be worse than an experienced raider until they’ve mastered the fights, but the amount of pulls it takes them will be a lot less than the number of keys it takes to turn a raider into a pusher. And it’s so much easier to get pulls in than keys.
Not really. Higher personal responsibility in modern raids means that one person stands far more a chance of wiping a run.
Getting 5 people not to screw up is wayyyy easier than getting 20 people to not screw up. Especially for cascading effects like Jaina’s freeze or Ilgynoth’s Mind Control.
What is the most complex mechanic in dungeons, as of this expansion? It’s a dungeon. The fact you can’t run every class means that the devs are massively limited in what the complexity of the mechanics they can design. That’s the entire reason 10 man raiding was axed in favour of the singular 20 man difficulty.
But let me guess. You run a Rogue and DH DPS. Maybe a Mage for lust since you appear to be the Healer. Very creative and hard to work around.
Except M+ isn’t a singular complex encounter. It’s a bunch of small, very simple encounters. Handling 100 mobs over the course of a dungeon with typically 1-2 mobs abilities isn’t nearly the same as handling a single encounter with dozens of mechanics.
The only real disadvantage the timer brings is that you can’t go for a bio break, like you can between raid pulls. But unless you’ve got a medical issue that causes you to take bathroom breaks every 10-15 mins, that’s usually not a big advantage in raid.
I reiterate my previous question. What is the most complex mechanic in M+?
It’s cute you think that. But I suppose when the limit of your experience this expansion is Mythic MOTHER, that can’t be helped.
Which is what you’re doing. Even harder than I am lmao.
You’re not just a clown. You’re the entire circus.
And m+ shouldn’t be harder than mythic raids. So what is the issue here?
It’s not about damage, it’s about experience.
It’s the first week. People want high IO players to just burn through +6’s as fast as possible for 445 gear and chances at corruptionforges. Give it a week or two and the craze will die down again.
Also, run your own key.
Normal raid bosses are a joke. No one cares.
Everyone’s cloak will be rank 7 by the end of this week.
The amount of vessels you have is irrelevant to m+.
Bursting over 100k and sustaining 40-60k is tank level dps. My teammates I run M+ with are bursting 4-6x that amount and sustaining nearly double that dps.
My main point is that comparing M+ to Heroic Raids and arguing that M+ is more punishing based on that is silly.
Unless you’re pushing the absolute bleeding edge (like 22-23’s last season), the difference between an imperfect run and a perfect run isn’t failure or success. It’s +1’ing it compared to +2’ing or +3’ing it.
I’ve done heroic raids, I can argue that m+ at a high level is more challenging all day. I simply said that I can’t do that with mythic because I don’t do it. Heroic raids are a joke though.
Is it, though? You get one idiot in your key and it’s busted. You get one idiot in your raid group, you can kick them after a pull or two and move forward.
Which honestly is what this entire conversation is about–avoiding idiots in mythic+.
I would argue that the fact you see people pugging high keys would indicate it’s easier. Ain’t nobody putting in the several hundred attempts it takes to learn the harder fights in Mythic with PuGs.
But back to the original conversation. We’re getting off track here.
Filters like RIO are necessary for PuG’ing. The only difference between your average M+ run and LFR in terms of PuG quality is filters. RIO just happens to be the most effective and efficient as of this moment.
Though when there’s a surplus of a specific role (in this case DPS), filters aren’t used simply to act as a skill check, they exist to skim the cream, since group leaders have the luxury to pick the best DPS when they’ve got as many applying to their groups as they usually do.
Forgiving doesn’t equate to easier; I’m not arguing that the most difficult content in the game is mythic raiding.
I’m arguing that it’s foolish to take an inexperienced player to a mythic+ run, because your key will likely get burnt.
Simple, M+ stinks for a RPG MMO like WoW.
Just because you can’t achieve anything more challenging than lfr doesn’t mean m+ is a bad system. It’s actually an amazing system and between m+ and the improved lfg system are the main reason a large group of friends and I returned to the game.
And that is one of the difficulties of raiding and it’s one of the exact reasons why the difficulty doesn’t scale.
Raiding has some huge benefits over small groups. While there are key tasks to be completed, not everyone in the raid is expected to perform each task. A core group of players is often enough to perform difficult tasks. Most guilds revolve around these core players. GM’s, officers, etc. It’s been true of every guild I have been in or managed.
In the end, even for progression guilds, filling spots with the best of the best takes a great deal of time and effort and that, as much as anything, is one of the keys and success to raiding… and the reason why I won’t ever bash it. It’s tough and I have been in that position.
That said… from any individual player standpoint, you can still build raids to be successful EVEN if you have weak links. You can prioritize difficult tasks to key players you know can perform. While the best of the best guilds might have a roster or 20 like skilled players, 99% of the guilds out there don’t have that luxury, even if they spent a great deal of time recruiting.
While getting 5 people to not screw up is ‘easier’ in the sense its easier to manage, you also have 25-35 minutes of NOT screwing up to work with. The higher you go, the less forgiving it gets. Since you want to bash on M+ and it’s difficulty, I’ll call you out all day. The content scales with players ability and gear, something raids haven’t done.
10 man raiding was axed because of flex raiding…
Most difficult? The complexity is the entire run, not a single instance in any fight. It’s multiple pulls in succession with strats of plotting out… literally the entire dungeon. With everything coming down to that route to when you’re using what CD at what point.
Considering you are talking to a disc priest, the most non-meta healer… it’s kinda funny you want to be snarky about it. I do run with rogues mostly as most of the dungeons and routes rely on them. Not that you can’t, but routes can often change when you don’t have one.
Considering most groups are built around r.druids, it was tougher on my end to make groups. That’s a challenge in itself. Granted, I did also start playing a druid and a number of other classes at a decently high level.
Welp, that’s where you’re wrong. But, your opinion is based on your limited experience, so I guess that is supposed to be expected.
The timer brings a lot more then that. Now you’re basically just trolling or flat out ignorant.
Clearly it’s mostly terrible players at the top pushing keys. Curious, why is a 16 your highest clearly? Going to blame IO? Why not just hop into any 20 key since its easy? Kinda baffled. Why don’t you have a couple 22s or 23s sprinkled in there?
They are easy right? Clearly they aren’t complex.
Are you arguing that raiding is getting harder? The strats change, but the difficulty is what it is. The total number of wipes has bounced around for lots of world first kills, but raiding has been the same format for ages and continues to do so.
And you really want to bash me for stopping at mother? This is just nuts. How pathetic and arrogant can you be? You want to argue you’re a better player because you raid?
What I’m doing? I said nothing of the sort. You actually think M+ is easy and want to group +2s in with +20s…
Actually having content that scales must be tough to wrap your head around.
I don’t think I’ve ever said that M+ isn’t difficult at the absolute highest level. It’s just not mechanically complex, which it isn’t. If you can’t figure out the difference between difficulty and complexity, I can’t help you.
And I don’t push M+ because I don’t care about it. I do my key for the week and that’s it.
I would have done everything on a 10, but the annoyance of dropping keys is rarely worth the effort in doing so.
I don’t expect this season to much different. I’ll do my 15 for the week, get to the point where it becomes trivial due to gear, my IO will naturally climb because I simply can’t be bothered dropping the 18 or whatever we have to a 15.
Right now? I’ve done a couple 15’s. They’re hard. But they’re not hard because they require amazing coordination and god-tier strategies. They’re just hard because everything has a ton of HP and hits really hard.
No, I’m bringing up your raid experience because:
Quite frankly, I wouldn’t have even mentioned your raiding experience if you didn’t bring it up first.
No, you just suck at reading.
Let me quote myself real quick.
And because you still don’t quite understand it, let me clarify.
“+2’ing” or “+3’ing” it doesn’t mean doing a chest at Mythic 2 or Mythic 3. It means completing it fast enough to get 2 or 3 key level upgrades.