They have also simply absorbed the other races without war and lifed in peace.
So either become puppet state of someone else or die?
Or maybe, if it upset you this much, you could’ve just asked for an explanation back then instead of waiting over two years to try and use it as a “Gotcha!” moment to defame me and my positions in an unrelated thread.
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Neither of them, they were allowed to live on according to their own rules and laws…but were within the realm of the night elves.
Even the story was taken by the night elves. In the very first canon of origin, they were the first people, the oldest people, the first empire, and actually the origin of all crafts/vocations and magical teachings.
here the proof
"the night elves are the oldest civilized race on azeroth, the origins of all things civilized and magical. All magic came from the kaldorei, both divine and later arcane. and true Civilisation rose from the elves domiciles. "
Oh yes thank you for reminder about this retcon. In-game books claimed otherwise. But it’s what Velratha was saying a while ago. I like how they made trolls look in the wrong even In front of one of the most evil and abusive characters in the franchise by even retconning bit with them being the ones assauled by beings using powerful magics.
Gotta give them credit.
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If it is not your preference for Trolls to be superior to Night Elves, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
What upsets me though is your double standards on retcons for the Night Elves being acceptable because they make some sense, but not for the Trolls when they make some sense as well. As I said, I still think the Night Elves are plenty unique even after being retconned to be descended from Trolls, and I think that Trolls would still be plenty unique if they were originally Titan-forged, and what upsets me is fan abandoning either for retcons that have no relevance to either’s cultures nor any relevance to what either are now.
I do not like the mentality of fair-weather fans.
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Draenei took that.
To be fair, you’re also asking me about a retcon that happened over a decade ago that I’ve long since come to accept. I’ve spent far more time with the “night elves maybe descend from trolls?” theory than without it.
If you asked me about a modern change to night elf lore I’d be a lot more openly opposed to it. Like asking if I’d be okay with Elune being a Naaru or Titan Construct or if I’d be fine to learn that Malfurion is secretly corrupted by the Nightmare and is going to be our next big bad.
And if I recall you did once say that if Malfurion died during the War of Thorns that would’ve been your breaking point. I don’t differentiate retcons from current events in terms to how badly treated a race is, and Chronicles was basically an entire book of taking a dump on troll lore.
My tolerance for how Blizzard’s lore writers want to constantly chip away at troll history is one of those things that is kind of teetering.
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I am a Cenarion Circle fan first (which is why you and I have gotten along so well so many times) and a Night Elf fan second. If they had killed Malfurion, I indeed would have stopped playing.
Honestly, if I was a Darkspear Troll fan, I would have stopped playing after they killed Vol’jin.
There’s a difference in being a fair-weather fan, and having the characters you are a fan of removed from the story.
In contrast, though, lets say they retconned it to say the Zandalari really did learn to be Druids first before Cenarius taught Malfurion to be a Druid. That wouldn’t actually change anything about what Malfurion has done or who he is, no more than Draenei being 15,000 years older than the Night Elves and still immortal did. Those would be reasons I would think too fickle to abandon what is enjoyable for.
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I am more or less the same. Druid fan first, then troll fan. Druid lore just doesn’t get crapped on as much as troll lore does.
The only thing that kept me in the game in legion, after Vol’jin’s death, was the excellent druid lore and ability to actually play a DRUID rather than a Horde soldier who turns into animals.
Now Zandalar is keeping me invested with its troll lore and troll druid lore, which I am enjoying.
But even then Rastakhan, a character I was hyped to meet for over a decade, died.
So like I said. Teetering. They keep killing all my favorite characters and messing with troll history. Putting a titan facility in Zandalar was… Weird but tolerable. Saying the troll origins that I’ve known for years is wrong and that they are no different from any other titanforged race would make it far less tolerable.
I guess you could say it is a balancing act. A lot of my favorite parts of the lore have been getting retconned and a lot of my favorite characters are being killed off. I can only take so much.
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Having been born in Mexico and of indigenous descent, I honestly can’t stand Zandalar because, for once, there is some pretty awesome representation of architecture that - while honestly I don’t have any real cultural or emotional connection to - I don’t get to see very often. But architecture is the key word there. The people living in that architecture are culturally knockoffs of Marvel’s Wakanda. And I just find that particularly insulting.
So, unfortunately, Rastakhan’s death was not particularly impactful to me. Nor do I particularly like Zandalar’s Druids.
Of course, for all I know, Asian people might feel the same way about Pandaria if it is a mishmash of different cultures being nonsensically crunched together, and I loved Pandaria, but sadly know actually very little about the vast array of Asian cultures.
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That is fair. It would be nice to get more cultural throwbacks to actual Mexica or Mayan civilizations. But then the trolls have always been a mix of several different ethnic groups and their cultures. It is what makes trolls unique as a fantasy race.
That gets into a whole different discussion about creating unique fantasy races though. On the one hand you can borrow wholesale from a single culture and risk creating a cultural caricature. Or you can mix and match multiple cultures and civilizations to try and create a more unique blend, but then you risk alienating the peoples who’s culture you’ve borrowed from by making something with their aesthetics that isn’t otherwise recognizable to them.
Granted I could definitely live without the Wakanda references. If you’re going to borrow from a culture at least borrow from the original source, not someone else’s interpretation of that source.
For my part I enjoy the Zandalari for what they are: A fantasy race that takes an architectural aesthetic I’ve always enjoyed and mixes it with things like dinosaurs, druidism, and general jungle themes that I like.
Kind of like how the Kaldorei have a more Korean inspired architecture even though most of their culture is inspired by Celtic origins.
As a troll fan I did quit the game after Vol’Jin died and I can say that on behalf of two of my friends.
We were so demoralized that we simply gave up. I wouldn’t have done it if there was at least a good replacement for him, but there was literally nothing with some meaningful story. But it was done too soon, without replacement, it felt rushed and they forced us to swear loyalty to Sylvanas with Vol’Jin burning right next to player. It was in such a bad taste that it made me believe that there is no way that they will ever treat this race with a dignity. I always had a soft spot for underdogs but if that underdog was beheaded then what was the point to cling to it anymore?
Zandalar was the only thing that made me and my friends return.
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As someone who’s a fan of the setting first, everything else second, why do you all place so much of your emotional investment in one character? Frankly any character? Most of them aren’t in depth.
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I don’t think anyone has placed all their investment in one character.
Amadis specifically said Malfurion would’ve been the last straw. I assume losing him, in addition to Teldrassil, would’ve been what made him quit. Aka losing a huge chunk of the setting that he loves.
Similarly Vol’jin represents the Darkspear tribe, which along with druidism are aspects of the setting that I love. Losing Vol’jin was a blow because his death meant the end of a storyline I was enjoying (his rise to warchief and taking it in a new, positive direction) and it being replaced with Sylvanas’ storyline.
I don’t think I have to explain why I don’t like Sylvanas’ storyline.
So it is less correct to say people invest all their emotions into one character and more accurate to say the characters, as a part of the world, are an aspect of that world people get invested in and that their removal, like the removal of certain stories or lore facts you thought compelling, can hurt your enjoyment of the setting as a whole.
As I’ve said before. Teetering. Because a LOT of what I loved about the setting has been changed, thrown out, or outright ignored for years. It isn’t just Vol’jin. It is Vol’jin plus all the other crap that has been changing about the world of Warcraft.
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It was not just one character, but it was straw that broke camel’s back for me. To me it looked like troll development actually regressed. As I said I wouldn’t have issue if he had some ready replacement, characters should have their arcs and once they’re done they can be disaposable.
Blizz villanized trolls each damn time, killed them left and right and in MoP has sunk Zandalar. And the last thing that was there was Vol’Jin. And they took out Vol’Jin in the most insulting way. It felt way too soon and we didn’t even had a chance to see how he would be doing as a Warchief? What was the point of building him up to become one?
There was nothing to look forward as Troll fan, there was close to nothing to look forward in Legion as Horde fan.
I didn’t want to be under Sylvanas. I didn’t want for Horde iconic class - shaman - to be dominated in it’s very class hall by Alliance races.
I wasn’t even interested in class lore as I knew they would mess this up - especially priest one. Almost each playable race has distinguish culture and their own interpretation of the class. There isn’t the ultimate take on class.
Legion also wasn’t the most exciting theme for me, demons, gloom and doom everywhere? Not only that - I knew they would pull it off in incredibly underwhelming way. And my concerns turned out to be true.
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It’s true, not many Warcraft characters are written well enough to warrant much emotional investment. I’d say Vol’jin was one of the few exceptions, but of course I’m a little biased here and others may disagree with me.
The main problem, however, is that the Darkspear didn’t have a big roster of important characters to draw from in the first place.
There was no replacement for Vol’jin until Rokhan finally received some screentime and relevance in bfa.
That ( and the fact that his death felt so meaningless and like an afterthought at the time, especially compared to Varian’s heroic exit ) is why losing Vol’jin was so devastating, and - to return to the topic- why a book with troll protagonists is now such a reason to celebrate.
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Good for you. No one cares.
For Talanji.
The Val’kyr that pledged themselves to Sylvannas can not be replaced. by all counts she has less than half of the 9 she started with.