I mean, ideally, everyone will have LW in a raid. It makes skinning actually profitable and lets people burn through a fight rather than spending multiple nights a week.
I also disagree that Engineering isn’t very similar to LW with drums. But, honestly, I feel like it’s cheaper to run LW than Engineering given the lack of a need for a specialty on top of all the gadgets.
Sure it does… it means adds stay up longer which can get people killed before BoPs or LIPs run out. The amount of Sappers that get used in Naxx is rather extensive…
Is the TBC ring weapon enchant just for melee or would it affect ranged weapons as well. anyone know? I am curious.
Which is relevant to hardcore guilds. Semi-hardcore and casual guilds don’t care about speed clearing trash. And what fights are sappers used? Maexxna? Trivial boss. Noth? Trivial boss. Faerlina? Trivial boss. Anub? Trivial boss. The actual hard fights in naxx (Loatheb, Sapph, 4H, Patchwerk, KT P2/3) sappers have basically no use at all.
And even if they were relevant, at least engineering has QoL and uses in PVP outside of raiding. For cloth and plater wearers, LW in TBC means only drums. You dedicate one profession for a singular item. No unique teleports or fun utility items. Just drums.
So no engineering is nothing like LW in TBC.
No clue, but it just says “adds 2 damage to physical attacks” so it should, big emphasis on should, work like the scopes do for Hunters.
Even non-hardcore guilds use Sappers extensively and required a lot of people to roll Engineering or reroll from another profession.
All of them. Seriously, why wouldn’t you use a Sapper during one of your many free GCDs? Tanks and Melee especially have plenty of time to throw them in, and their use renders trivial bosses even easier to drop before any mechanics occur, and speeds up everything. If you’re going to act like melee saving their Sappers for Patchwerk’s sub 5% is meaningless, on top of just how much smoother, not even faster, just smoother trash goes when loads of people have them to rotate through, I really can’t take you too seriously griping about 80 Haste Rating.
It is pretty much the only one, and if you aren’t a PvPer, it doesn’t matter. I use my Gadgetzan teleporter and that’s about it outside of powershifting a Sapper. An entire profession slot is taken so I can explode mobs and trash alike for raid efficiency and my perk is a sometimes faulty teleporter that I haven’t needed because PvP servers are nightmares and summon networks are so much easier. I haven’t walked to an instance in ages.
You’re speaking from a hardcore mentality. Most people don’t care about optimal trash clearing. I care about what makes bosses easier to kill. Sappers is relevant for one boss because it significantly shortens a somewhat tricky endurance fight since it’s healing intensive. For everything else, it’s a miniscule bonus.
I won’t argue 80 haste rating is a massive bonus. I wouldn’t even care if drums was a personal buff and was the bis personal buff. Again my issue is 4/5 people in the party needing the uptime. This means that if three people in the party are using drums, there is pressure for at least one of the others to get drums as well.
Which makes the comparison that much more ridiculous. You’re here arguing vehemently that the only reason 90% of raids are Engineers is because of Viscidus, a single boss that is now entirely antiquated, and that’s not a problem, but having LW for universal usage and improvement to Tanks, DPS, and Healers alike on any fight at any point in the game is a problem… and you don’t see the ridiculousness of it?
If half your team has sappers and can make boss adds and trash disappear and you’re not one of the Engineers and there are still adds up later that could be deleted but for your lack of Engineering, you feel pressure too…
The same pressure you feel when you can get away with no Frost Resistance and survive Sapph but many in your guild are using it and wondering why you’re needlessly taking damage…
The same pressure you feel when you can get away with a Deep Protection spec because you really hate the idea of Bloodthirst tanking but you’re not generating near the threat you need to let your DPS go off…
The same pressure you feel when you can get away with a PvP spec and you’re the lone Mage or Rogue that isn’t rocking the meters…
There will always be pressure to min/max in any guild, whether it is ultra hardcore or casual, if even a few folks make a point to pursue that min/max. My alt guild is 11/15 right now, loads of Engineers, lots of people forced into Engineering, and the only real difference between them and my main guild is that the alt guild just doesn’t utilize Engineering to its fullest… along with everything else. That’s why they’re much more casual, because they sorta phone it in on a variety of fronts, none of which are super critical, none of which are the lynch pin of success, but together make us have to go through multiple Decimates on Gluth rather than none. If the perception in TBC is that Hunters are the best thing ever because they are in min/max environments, even casuals will trend towards wanting more Hunters and less Rogues. That’s just how this game goes and there’s no real reason for Blizzard to monkey with that stuff.
I never said people got sappers for viscidus. I’m just saying that for the content most players care about (bosses) sappers offer a small bonus that has virtually no impact on the difficulty of the encounter. If there were many bosses where sappers made a fight easier like viscidus, then I would pick up engineering.
Also your analogies are not very well thought out. Boosting a profession is big cost and time commitment and difficult to swap back and forth. Swapping gear for one fight or changing specs isn’t the same. It’s very easy to go back and forth between a raid spec and a pvp spec. It’s not practical to re-level professions every week for raiding so you can have the profession you actually want outside of raiding. Going back and forth between professions isn’t really a thing.
Also a lot of people are asking for drums to get nerfed. I think people were fine with engineering in Vanilla for raiding because it’s bis for pvp. No one who doesn’t wear the crafted gear wants to take LW. It’s not fun at all. I don’t want to take it, but I don’t want to be the guy that prevents other people in my party from getting 100% uptime on the haste buff.
There is no analog to drums in Tailoring or BS. So people are asking for a small change so they feel like they have more freedom in their pick of a second profession.
But I’ve made my point and won’t respond anymore. I’d like blizzard to do some type of poll to see what the playerbase actually wants. If the majority wants to keep it as-is then I’m ok with that. I just think TBC will be more fun if drums was a personal buff only or added a sated type debuff.
you dont need to use the drums if you dont like it just dont use it
Trying to explain social dynamics to those types is a waste of effort. Don’t bother.
If people don’t want to take Leatherworking, they don’t have to. But there’s no reason to nerf LW purely because people feel obligated.
That’s like arguing we should have nerfed Engineering so people didn’t feel obligated in Classic. Or how we should nerf Bloodlust/Heroism for the same reasons.
People can argue for whatever they like for whatever reason they like.
I think the desire to kin/max damage is not a good enough reason to keep them the same. Both are equally valid.
Fact is people feel social pressure to get world buffs even when they don’t want to. Saying “don’t want them, don’t get them” doesn’t make this social pressure go away, nor does it prevent the situation where people have to leave guilds because guilds decide to change the rules.
Not everyone has a smorgasbord of guilds to choose from nor do they want to leave their guilds if changes to expectations occur.
one of our raid teams changed from not including performance in loot decisions to including world buff acquisition into loot decisions. So I had to drop my rogue for a healer if I wanted to get loot at the same rate as everyone else as well as get raid invites at the same rate as everyone else because I don’t care about world buffs. World buffs also made raiding not fun because the second they were lost? Just was not fun anymore.
So yeah, I won’t mind when they are gone and the parses rat race is more about individual skill rather than who tripled their power with buffs and consumes.
Then I’m sorry to say, but raiding is about the same in TBC as it is in Classic. It’s still very consume heavy (especially with the addition of drums), there’s just thankfully no world buffs.
I don’t see consumables as a bad thing, like I did with world buffs. It drives a market and the economy.
It is one flask or two potions.
That is nothing compared to now outside of drums.
I don’t have a problem with consumes. But I have a problem with the consumes on top of the world buffs and how if you don’t have both then it is a waste of time. How zones can be camped to no end with no ability to do anything other than do a brainless gold farm to then buy said consumes.
I mean people have seperate sets of gear for world buffs and without world buffs.
I won’t lose sleep if they don’t change drums, one of my characters already has leatherworking, doesn’t mean I won’t be happy/support the change.
His argument is solely because of the strength the drums essentially “encouraging” players into lw. I’m fine with either route they choose.
One flask or two potions, plus food, pots, and possibly other consumables that last from vanilla to TBC.
It’s not at all like it is now (or, at least, it’s better), but there’s still quite a few.
Well this is mostly revolving around crit - hitting the crit cap is a problem for some, as well as buff cap, and with the ZG buff (and possibly Kings) it raises the value of raw stats.
I won’t be choked up about not having them, though I’ve already farmed all the leather to drop Engineering once TBC hits - since I plan to try and do the Clefthoof and other farms with Skinning.
This is arbitrary nonsense. Swapping a profession is actually incredibly easy with a bit of prep, and I literally explained how I did exactly that early on in Phase 1 in Classic WoW, so yes it is a thing. A person can feel incredibly pressured to do all sorts of things because of guild dynamics and no singular thing will be equally felt by all people.
Plenty of people feel compelled to get all wbuffs, others are content to just get head/heart.
Plenty of people feel compelled to min/max everything, others don’t feel bothered by it.
You’re trying to rank order how various guild-level pressures may feel to prove a point.
If you don’t want to go LW, just don’t do it, but if you feel pressure to do so, you’re feeling the same pressure every other person has ever felt about being told to make a choice about their character for the benefit of other people in a guild/raid/etc.
No. They will not destroy my RP by nerfing drums. When I play my drums in TBC I will be as close to being a bard as I ever have been. I will play those drums. Bra rump ba bum bum. It’s important that Blizzard preserve bards in TBC.
There were many times during TBC where my guild gathered in the park and we all played together in unison. Oh yes, the melodic flow must continue. A nerf to drums is a nerf to bards all throughout WoW, don’t do this Blizzard.
If drums must be nerfed then I beg you, add a flute or wind chimes that gives 5% crit. Maybe even a harmonica or a cow bell. If Tauren used the cow bell it would give them extra run speed in addition to crit.
Feral druid, enhance shaman. Better versions of the leg armor benefit every melee class.
It’s amazing how people continue to force their 2021 gaming mindset and ideals into an old game. It’s up to you to adjust to the game, not the other way around.
If you want a boring, bland game devoid of life or soul with all the rpg elements sucked out of it, then play Shadowlands. Because that’s exactly the kind of game this obsessive min/max mentality creates.