Jeezus, the BEs were a great addition for the Horde (or, at least Thrall’s concept of the Horde). Granted, they’ve sort of lost their edge over the years, but they did grow more savage and ruthless in order to survive (fitting in nicely). Also, Lor’themar has consistently proven his loyalties and to be an asset. Its nuts that this is still an issue 12 years after the BEs joined the faction.
The worst part of the BEs being in the Horde is the strange amount of BE players who defend Sylvanas to their dying breath; proving they care more about HER than the Horde as a Faction; the Forsaken as a people; and hell … even the culture of their own BE player race. This is especially prominent considering I wouldn’t doubt for a second that Sylvie would lose like 50 percent of that dogmatic support if she looked like Voss (and not some hot, vampire Elf).
She didn’t really give them a place to live. It was their kingdom to begin with. Sure, she led the overthrow of the dreadlords. But then appointed herself ruler. So either way the people of lordaeron lost their home. And what’s she done as leader? She’s kept them living as monsters, exactly as the lich king made them; killing, cannibalizing, concocting plagues, committing genocide.
AND … the point goes to Magnarok. These issues with Sylvie’s brand of leadership are further highlighted by “Edge of Night” were its revealed what she really thought of her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” up until the fall of Arthas. The Forsaken are Tools. Valuable tools, certainly; but still tools. There is a reason that her relationship with them has always remained ambiguous. She’s never really been a very good representative or leader of “Her People”.
It sort of sucks tbh that one of the major things keeping Nathanos from developing into a potentially pretty OK replacement for her … is his relationship with her. The guy actually WAS a Champion of Lordaeron in life. He actually WAS betrayed fundamentally by the Alliance, when SI:7 attempted to assassinate him. He actually does seem to give a crap about the Forsaken (in his own, perpetual curmudgeonly way). The Foundation is there … if not for that massive Sylvie issue.
Hell, if Voss invested in her people and became HIS Champion after Sylvie is gone (as she is sort of the living embodiment of Forsaken Free Will) … the Forsaken might actually be in a fairly good state mechanically after Sylvanas.
Agreed, the concept of Forsaken by itself has a lot of potential(reminder that Tauren people even used their valuable resources and time to find a cure, that’s how much the Horde cares for them). They’re members of the Horde, through and through, there’s no denying their place among our ranks.
They’ve fought, bleed and died by our side. The fact Sylvanas is manipulating, using and toying with them is a huge disservice for the actual true “morally gray” race Azeroth has. Manipulating their free will is something so low, only an evil character like the Lichking would do.
I would actually support Voss cause i actually see her being a good forsaken leader and lead the forsake to a better life somewhat then Slyvanas. That and she doesn’t look like a model and looks like a true visionary leader.
And have a better tragic backstory that makes me legit feel sorry for her since she didn’t guitar slide into the sword like a fool. (You know your writing messed up when Nobbel presented this better years ago with a budget of 2 ramen noodle cups.)
That’s because Sylvanas wasn’t even part of Lordaeron’s people when the crap hit the fan, she just appointed herself as Queen and usurped the throne out of convenience.
I’d love to see an ACTUAL member of the fallen kingdom of Lordaeron as ruler of the Forsaken like Nate or Lilly.
Cairns was done in such a dirty way, I still haven’t forgiven Blizzard. My favorite character from WC3 and he’s just butchered off screen in a book. It definitely led me to hating Magatha, and I look forward to the day her head is stuck on a pike in Orgrimmar.
That said, I agree about Baine. He’s naive and young, and he’s also suffering from the fact that I imagine Cairne had him growing up knowing Jaina, plus he shares similar ideals with Anduin. The Horde has a stalemate between WC3 and the launch of Classic which leads me to believe Baine spent time with Jaina since she was close by. Not to mention that just means both sides of thinkers that actually follow a similar belief, so maybe the Horde and Alliance have no reason to be enemies. As it stands right now, as soon as Sylvanas is dealt with, neither side really has a reason to fight. I think that’s the friction many people have with Baine.
Personally, I like the guy. I think he’s learning that the world sucks, especially when your family head is Lich Queen Barbie and her blind, yes men followers. But he’s also finally taking a stand against something that’s killing the Horde slowly.
I also like that back in Legion, she doesn’t say a few words to the alliance “Hey our warchief’s been stabbed, we need to retreat” before retreating in silence. Really did a lot to save Varian’s bacon.
If Slyvanas ever did one true good thing to Varian, it’s that now he has an even bigger statue.
Baine is conceptually a good character, at least at his foundations. However, i do find that one of the primary underlying issues with him is that (beyond his youthful naivete) Blizz tends to prefer using him exclusively in a “Token Good Horde” Plot Device way; to act as a counterbalance whenever they want to go off the deep end with another Horde representative.
I mean, looking at Baine’s character archetecture:
He’s the son of one of founders of the WC3 Horde.
He essentially grew up in Thrall’s Horde; making him a product of it.
He’s a representative of the ONLY race that vouched for the potential of the Forsaken as a people (and I DID actually enjoy him calling out Sylvie on her utter betrayal of Forsaken Free Will recently; if nothing else that was a good moment).
His heroes and mentors are Thrall; Saurfang; Baine; and Vol’jin.
He also is at least attempting to follow through the goal his father died for (lasting peace with the Alliance). However, he thinks in a far too straightforward way to approach that goal.
On top of this, we KNOW he has a savage side (hell, it was Golden who wrote the Baine who gave into his anger at the death of Cairne and not only beat Garry in a Mak’Gora; but ripped him in two with his bare hands). The issues is, despite War Crimes stating that Baine accepted that part of himself; we’ve never been allowed to see it benefiting the Horde.
ALL of this should lay the foundations for a pretty good character (and hell, a decent potential Warchief down to road); even WITH his friendship with Anduin, and his preserved Work Relationship with Jaina. However, Blizz’s use of Baine does not make the most of the type of character he’s capable of being. It … really … sucks…
The sad thing is, Blizzard has shown they really can’t write virtually any character to their fullest potential. Your analysis is definitely strong, and I can only hope that with Baine being front and center this time, the writing will improve. But after how Vol’jin especially was handled, I think you’re just correct in Blizz only using him for the good Horde plot. What makes me nervous is that they’ll end up killing him for Magatha to take over the Tauren and that will be the next “Horde leader” that goes insane and tried to kill the Alliance, because that’s how they would actually write it.
I think you and I are of the same mind that Baine has potential. I just hope that he’ll be actually written in a way that makes him more than just the token positive force in the Horde.
A part of me hopes that Blizz does intend to actually fix the structural issues with the Horde this time around; especially with it looking like the Sylvie issue will FINALLY be dealt with (and she’s be a problem long before she was Warchief; just more ignorable). The biggest factor to why she was a problem is she (due to her tendency of using others as mere tools for personal objectives) … that mentality spread to the Forsaken as a people … and sort of resulted in them never really growing out of “we’re just using the primitive races of the Horde” mentality that they had in Vanilla.
The best possible outcome for me atm with BfA is that Sylvie’s Warbringers is prophetic; and just like the very end implies … its Sylvanas, standing alone (not even Blightcaller remains at her side). As such, if Nathanos does make a move to choose his people over her … he (in tandem with Voss, preferably) would make pretty good Forsaken leaders. With Gazlowe’s increased presence (and Grizzek implying that Gazlowe has gotten more involved with Goblin politics) … I’m hoping they set him up to deal with the other Problem Child of the Horde as well (Gallywix).
Love Wix, he’s a great character, and I don’t want him dead … but he’s a trash leader. After that, its merely a matter of shoving say … Thrall on the Warchief spot; making Rokhan the official leader of the Darkspear finally; and ensuring Saurfang doesn’t go the way of all old orcs (thinking that a quick death will absolve them of their mistakes). And we have the makings of a pretty good Horde.
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