Now imagine that someone discovered that, because of flex scaling, Tindral’s mechanics became 10% easier with exactly 22 people. Nobody would do the boss with anything BUT 22 people. Flex mode for mythic would not do what people think it would do.
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and that was the tipping point of wow imo. once 20 man mythic was implemented at the end of mop SOO it axed hundreds if not thousands of guilds instantly. some guilds split off. some got more players and made an attempt and few successfully stuck together. my guild was one of those guilds. we were close knit and once we were forced into a 20 man roster we made it to around blackrock foundry in wod before we dissolved. to this day i never seen a single person from my guild online since then. it was blizzards biggest mistake. and i could only imagine how many other guilds found themselves in that position as well.
it would be hard for blizzard to make any changes going forward. they have to be careful with the decisions they make, as at least 90%+ of their decisions have been catastrophic thus far considering the empty realms considering the merging and all.
while it would be nice, it would have to be done with extreme care. they are hanging on by a microscopic thread.
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But then what happens to guilds for which heroic is the proper difficulty for season-long progression? They are just SOL?
And you want Blizzard defining what you can and can’t kill? I genuinely do not understand what’s so wrong with allowing players to decide for themselves when they want to be done. Nothing forced your guild to continue pulling that boss once your group reached the point where it felt hopeless except for your group’s own stubbornness.
Taking agency away from one group because another group simply cannot help themselves is not something I will ever get behind. There is certainly an argument to be made as to whether having a 450+ pull boss is healthy even for the highest difficulty. But regardless what the difficulty of the content is, players should be able to decide for themselves if they want to keep going or call it a day. Blizzard shouldn’t step in and tell my group that we can’t try because your group kept hacking away at a task impossible for your group.
You may not have seen my suggestions in this thread which is quite long, but I do think a simple solution to this is to lock HOF (and all raid placement) to only raids running exactly 20 players. I suspect most mythic raid groups today care about how they compete with other guilds, and those groups would still have to run exactly 20 even if Tindral was easier with 22.
But that would open the door for guilds that want to pull mythic raid bosses with their existing roster without any care about where they place in relation to other guilds. It might even lead to some guilds trying mythic before deciding to take the leap to play the roster game in order to see how they stack up with other guilds.
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They are finished…for about 100 guilds in the world.
Everyone else needs to wait for the nerf sledgehammer.
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You suspect wrong. Hall of Fame is only 100 guilds; this would have a serious impact to comp and roster for every other CE guild that you aren’t accounting for.
Flex mode Mythic is a bad idea.
I wasn’t just talking about HOF, I mean that there literally is no achievement that can be tracked on raider.io, wow progress, or any other external site. To the larger world, you did not kill a mythic raid boss if you did not have exactly 20 players present. The only reason you were there is because you wanted a higher challenge than heroic and playing with your existing roster meant more to you than anyone knowing how you stack up against any other guild killing mythic.
That’s… entirely stupid. Locking every achievement and kill credit if you aren’t in a group of 20? Then not a single CE guild, where the titles, mounts, and achievements are badges of honor for the work put in, would do anything but use 20-man.
Maybe just accept the fact that mythic raiding isn’t meant to be “for everyone”.
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OK then since only like 3% of the population participate can we get blizz to only put 3% of their budget into designing and tuning it?
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So we just make everything world quests because that’s the content most people do? xd
Might as well just turn the game into a mobile game, more people play those so it must be better.
The “deal” was always that there were lower difficulties for people that couldn’t do the higher ones not that everyone would be able to clear all difficulties.
The tiny amount of extra work that goes into making the mythic difficulty on top of the LFR/Normal/Heroic versions is undeniably less than 3% of their total resources.
FF14 also has a simplistic fight design given every fight is single target, every single damage profile is a single target and it is centered around everyone bursting at 2 minutes and mechanics take that into account. P8s p1 was one of the first fights that drifted away from this homogenized design where you can have a mechanic sequence that causes you to do a burst window during high movement and cause you to experience about 20 seconds of downtime before the 6-minute burst window and was one of the first time since Gordias where they had to nerf the fight because job design isn’t meant to account for that.
Meanwhile, there are around 32 specs in wow that all do damage in pretty unique ways with different damage profiles. with fights in Wow having unique fight designs. You shrink that down to pick 10, and then you’ll have people who are playing less popular classes/specs dead in the water and unable to get into guilds. Unless they completely nerf the difficulty of fights to the point where mythic is around heroic-level difficulty, issues with comps will be rampant.
What he said.
That’s not what that means at all. If 30% of players raid 30% of the budget goes to that. Not just eliminate raiding altogether in favor of putting 100% of the budget toward the most popular aspect of the game even if only 50% engage in it.
Oh so if the work is minimal then it must be easy to balance and then there is no issue with making Mythic flex.
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As a long time player I’d rather see raiding die a noble death.
Watching it languish on life support for years as it slowly fades away sounds and feels so selfish.
World first FFXIV statics are using outside raid leaders for shot calling now. So… no, you’re wrong. And if you like FFXIV’s raid design, go play that game and leave WoW alone.
If you haven’t paid attention, the raids have been pretty well balanced and adjusted, mythic tswift being nerfed later than it should have been aside. Mythic difficulty is in a pretty good spot right now.
That would probably be more than what they currently put on it right now.
As a lot of “designs” is shared between multiple content like class design, ui design, combat gameplay, etc.
All of those stuff that we just assume exist and works are where the most work go.
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Already have that. Raiding is not as big of a deal as it used to be.
I can’t tell if you 2 are being deliberately obtuse by ignoring my point or if you really believe blizzard already spends less % of their budget/resources on Mythic raid design and tuning than the % that actually do this content.
Exactly. For existing CE guilds, or any guild that is capable of becoming a CE guild, NOTHING CHANGES. That’s the entire point of that aspect of my suggestion.
The primary reason given for why mythic cannot be flex is because the relative differences boss to boss would be different with different roster sizes. And that reason is completely accurate. A different raid size would be ideal for different bosses in the same raid tier, without a doubt. That would make it even harder for anyone outside HOF to maintain a roster to be successful in mythic, which would be a big problem.
My suggestion is entirely focused on ensuring the primary reason why many (if not most) CE guilds today exist isn’t different even if other groups can try their hand at mythic. Not all groups that have an appetite for mythic would care about the achievement, they just want something more than heroic and needing exactly 20 for the raid (and 25ish in practice to account for absences) is a barrier too great to overcome to make the attempt.
Nothing about my suggestion would change the fact that mythic raiding isn’t for everyone. There would be no shortage of groups that walk into the raid, get absolutely wrecked, and bounce. And that should be normal, that’s how groups should find their limit, not some artificial wall that only seems to exist to ensure competition from the established players remains low.
There are guilds that clear heroic inside of a couple months that don’t have exactly 20 which now spend the better part of 6 months on farm. There’s nothing wrong with the guilds that are happy for the break, and nothing in my suggestion would force them to try mythic. But for the guilds that long for more progression raid content, they are saddled with nothing but bad options that need not exist as far as I can tell - every response I’ve seen to my suggestion has been deflection, strawman, or ad hominem.
- Groups that have fewer than 20 will need to recruit to try mythic. If they’re close to 20 and/or their guild exists solely to progress in raid, this likely isn’t too bad. If it’s a dozen friends who have known each other for years, they need to double their raid size with strangers that could negatively impact their guild/raid culture.
- Groups with more than 20 have to tell some portion of their players they are no longer welcome to raid, except when someone who made the initial cut of 20 can’t make it to raid one night in which case they get tagged in. So the raid leadership has an uncomfortable conversation with the person being benched about no longer having a raid slot but asking them to stay with the guild and keep their schedule clear during raid nights so they can sub in at a moment’s notice.
- And for the groups that do decide to recruit/bench players to get to exactly 20 primary raiders, all that work can be a colossal waste of time for everybody involved if they aren’t ready for mythic.
I don’t object to the statement mythic raiding isn’t for everyone, it definitely isn’t. I object to one of the most significant barriers to even attempt it is needing to add or remove significant number of players from what they could run in the previous difficulty. Any group that isn’t cut out for mythic can get that feedback from getting pounded on the first challenging mythic boss and decide what to do at that point. It would be far better to allow them to do that at 14 players than force them to recruit to 20 or at 26 players after having benched/cut 6. It would be far better to allow a player with mythic aspirations to get their first taste of that kind of raiding with their current AOTC guild of people they know than for them to need to leave for an entry-level CE guild with people they don’t. It would be far better to allow a progression path for guilds that could evolve into genuine CE competitors before having to make drastic roster changes just to get in the door.