The level squish is a part of it, but that was already in Dragon flight and worked. It had some middle ground. Now its a combination of things as OP listed. Dungeon Tuning, Affix tuning, progression path.
This is coming up now, because players are at or near that heroic cap and leaving feedback to get ahead of it, so when you are ready to progress you will not also hit that wall.
This isnât a valid argument
Players can progress over time, but everyoneâs progression ends at some point. Some sooner than others. It has always been that way. The fact is M+ was entirely too rewarding because of how easy it became. The fact that it didnât become challenging until post-rewards meant something was wrong. It should have been challenging during the reward process.
Itâs because of the time, but moreso because of the skill requirement.
Then quit.
You still have refused to explain to us what the âbugsâ are. There are some, but itâs not flooded with them.
You donât raid so donât speak as to why people choose to Mythic raid or not.
âProgress ends at some point for everyoneâ lmao, ok mr. gatekeeper. This is how I know you canât view things from another perspective, you think hard stopping peopleâs progression is good for the game, amazing.
Again, if you donât raid, donât talk about why people choose to push M raid or not. IF you INDEED not raid just because you donât like to raid, then you will never understand. IF you donât raid because of your RL, youâve proven my point, which according to you derp âisnt a valid argumentâ
I am quitting, as long as there arenât nerfs and/or reward system is revised. Do I need to mail you proof of unsubscription so you can sleep better at night? BTW the nerfs have already begun, announced last night no less.
Hereâs a thought for bugs, I donât know how to link things on this forum, but I am sure you are able to click 2 buttons and get to the bug report forum, have fun reading all about them.
I donât raid, but I know raiders and in a CE guild. I donât need to raid to know that Mythic Raiding requires a lot of player skill. Thereâs a reason why most Mythic Raiders donât get CE even though they put in 300+ pulls on a boss. That shows a huge amount of time commitment which still isnât enough on itâs own to down a boss. Time is a factor, but skill is a bigger one. You can have 2000 pulls, but if you canât execute on the mechanics properly then you wonât win.
Progress literally ends at different points for different people. People who are âsolo onlyâ players will have their progression end where ever delves rewards end. Prior to TWW, their progression path was even shorter. Not everyone is meant to reach the top, thereâs nothing gatekeepy about it. There are different end-points for everyone on a personal level. Some players who participate in M+ will hit the top and some will stay at the bottom. Thereâs nothing wrong with where people stop on their own progression based on their skill and willingness to push through challenges.
So you donât know any bugs aside from seeing what other people are reporting. Okay, got it. Proving my point. You have actual zero first hand experience with them, but are trying to make an argument that the game is flooded with bugs. You are not only hyperbolic, but when people who actually play the content disagree with you, you ignore it completely because it doesnât fit your agenda. You are suffering from confirmation bias and trapped in your world of circular reasoning.
The timer needs to be removed from M+. It is the core problem and continues to degrade normal, heroic, timewalking, M0/+2-5, and LFR. Developers should structure the mobs and layout to punish the abusive non-tank pullers with more consequences and for tanks pulling when they out-distance teammates, which puts the entire run in jeopardy resulting in a worse-than-sour frustrating experience.
M+ should reward clean efficient gameplay using a point system that would complement PvP playstyles, meaning the use of interrupts, stuns, and crowd-control abilities. The âgo fasterâ until players start dying mindset is the most toxic, abusive, selfish, and inconsiderate playstyle for the casual and normal-level player. A MMORPG should not be designed around 1 player having control over 4 or even 24 other players.
Day 2 of you wasting my time, congrats! You argue for the decline of the game, I argue for the game to thrive as a business and for players alike, thereâs nothing else to say. Feel free to project your shortcomings with another slamminâ response.
Thereâs a handful people on the forums who are bad faith actors who just argue with everyone in every thread theyâre in. (or maybe just 1 person character swapping who knows)
And most of us have them on ignore, and we just see well intentioned people like you arguing back and forth with no one in the thread.
But yes, Gilded Crests in 8s would immediately double my satisfaction of this M+ season, and really it wouldnât the end of the world if they moved them down to 7s, but 8s are fine.
Iâve never ignored anyone on the forums before because I didnât know how. I looked it up and happy to report my first addition to the list!
Iâm only responding to you. You are wasting your own time because you still cannot hold an argument and stay on topic. All you do is dodge.
Lmao, âwell intentionedâ is the person who canât stay on topic and defend an argument with any evidence? You are backing a person who has made things personal from the start.
Im definitely crest capped on heroic and have had terrible rng with loot, but it is only week 3. I enjoy the challenge and prefer the slow down in gearing. I mean look at how many people stopped playing season 4 after only a few weeks because loot was so attainable from the very start. Yes some tuning definitely still needs to be done, but I also feel like nobody wants to work for top loot anymore either.
Good for you buddy, you might even time the next Mists.
I did.
Well done! The things you get done when playing and improving instead of wishing it were easier on the Forums.
Again, not wanting it to be easier, wanting a better ramping gradient for the challenge. Itâs inelegantly designed at present.
You have that unless youâre going from 11 to 12s. That jump is pretty damn big with current gear.
The jump from 9 to 10 is the biggest jump weâve had in the loot-level keys at any point in WoWâs history. Theyâre possible to do, and Iâve done a few, but it feels very jank to go from zero to sixty both in terms of loot and difficulty in one key level.
My PoV - Iâve pushed M+ in the past, got Mistwalker with an off-meta comp. Nowadays I raid mythic 6 hours per week in a CE guild thatâs pushing into the world top thousand and M+ is just homework.
Iâm finding the current M+ season unenjoyable.
My ideal would be that I can get on with 3-4 guildies or similarly capable friends, pick up a pug or two from dungeon finder, and knock out 4 or 8 mythic vault slots in roughly the dungeon timer + 15 minutes of organisation per instance. Thatâs roughly 45-50 minutes per instance, or somewhere between 3 and 5 hours of homework m+ per week. Not a trivial amount of time, but doable in an evening or two & leaves plenty of time to enjoy other aspects of the game. This is a completely unfeasible play aspiration at present & I donât see it improving with gear.
Problems I see:
The 15 second death penalty is extremely punishing. For most dungeons the difference between barely in time and a +2 is 6 or 7 minutes. An additional 10 seconds per death, so 50s for a full wipe, chews through 6 minutes of time extremely fast⌠and itâs not like semi-pugs were reliably getting +2 completions even in easy seasons like s3 and s4 of dragonflight. One pug with an unhealthy attraction to voidzones can single-handedly kill a key that the other four players couldâve done as a 4-stack.
The damage is extreme & spikey. Hits thatâre upwards of 2 million are commonplace (nearly any interruptable spell, most ground effects, etc). In contrast Mythic Rashaânanâs puddles only do ~1.25 million every 0.5 seconds, and thatâs 4-5 healed over the course of 6-7 minutes instead of solo healed over ~35 minutes. The damage is mostly avoidable in both circumstances, but interrupt sequencing is not required for mitigation in most of the mythic raid & the load is spread much more easily. Current health on a 619 is ~6 million and in BiS sets will only get as high as ~7.5 million, so all non-tanks are sitting somewhere between one and three damage events from death for ~35 minutes.
Past seasonsâ good play is dangerous this season - soft stops like disorients risk baiting interrupts from your own party. Most pulls will include at least one mob with a must-interrupt secondary cast that someone needs to hold their interrupt for. All this just exaggerates the spike damage. Mix in a pug or two who isnât on comms & the risk escalates.
This is the first season where mythic loot & keystone achievements have been on the same level. If mythic raid & mythic dungeons were actually separated environments, like pve & pvp, possibly this would make sense as a pinnacle activity+reward. But the reality is that M+ is required for mythic raiding - even if we have zero interest in it - so putting the relevant gear at achievement-push levels is as unwelcome as making PVP gear useful for raiding. The loot pool from M+ lacks some individual BiS pieces, but is much broader than a partial mythic raid clear & therefore more useful for untargeted gearing.
And so we end up with an environment where strangers are an unacceptable risk. The slightest mistake is punished harshly. A bricked key doubles your time investment if you need to recover it. Coordination is demanded both in scheduling & play. In this environment weak links need to be avoided, therefore the pug scene becomes predictably ruthless - insularity is strongly encouraged.
This is not a pleasant dungeon environment, so I do not like this season so far.
I think viewing an alternative fully fleshed out end game pillar as âhomeworkâ is the biggest issue.
Imagine if key pushers felt mythic raiding was âhomeworkâ they need to bang out in a few hours with a chill pug every week.
This isnt accurate or relative to the average WoW player and is just a blatant defense of Blizzard choices because you happen to be one of the few that are unaffected because you have the time and years of experience backing up your ability.
This M+ season is insanely punishing for no reason.
Solid post. I would like to add, in previous seasons I didnât mind spending time pugging keys outside of raid time, but between the average quality of players and the decreased reward/increased difficulty, pugging is a complete waste of time for some of the reasons youâve mentioned.
I forsee the m+ population bottoming out quickly if things stay as they are. I couldnât care less if people have the same gear as me as a CE raider.
The majority of new dungeons have quite a lot of mechanics on bosses, and once again Blizz have managed to gloss over a means to properly teach mechanics and have a less steep difficulty curve imo. People will instantly leave keys in the few pugs Iâve done, this does nothing to work through or explain mechanics to groups learning dungeons in the first few weeks and most people canât be bothered to actually look up mechanics on their own time.
M+ is not an enjoyable form of gameplay in my eyes.
Quite a few M+ oriented players Iâve known have looked at heroic raid that way - and would look at mythic raid that way if they could find a raid full of people prepared to accommodate them. They just have the issue that itâs easier to split 20+ people into groups than find 15 appropriate extras for their 5 player squad.
Heroic raid routinely provides a quick head-start on tier gear, and many heroic versions of trinkets are nearly as solid as their myth track counterparts for serious key pushers.
Itâs a bit harder to accommodate purely gear focused people at the push end of the raiding community because the roster boss is much more involved.
But imo that seems like a better argument for the final stages of both M+ and Raid rewarding no actual gear & only dropping cosmetic loot + bragging rights.
At the end of the day though, myself & other raid oriented players will just run keys in-guild which wonât help grow the M+ community.
Itâs not a good outcome, even if some people take (understandable) offense at my regarding their preferred playstyle as homework. Personally I still try to do my homework effectively & in a friendly manner.