The infinite scaling and the expectation that you are supposed to do M+ to fill the gaps of Ilvl and content in-between raiding is awful. You can get a full set of Normal CN gear, and still get a difference of 13 ilvl’s in-between pieces of armor. You then have to wait a week for chances to get this gear, making getting a full set difficult and time consuming. With the state of group finder and attempting to do group content in general, you are bound to be stuck in “Link X ach or don’t bother” purgatory or end up not getting invited in general because somehow, 194 is not “good enough” for Normal, 205 isn’t “good enough” for Heroic, and raid leaders are just looking to get a glorified carry.
Naturally, this just means you are expected (forced) to do Mythic+ in a classic example of the illusion of choice that plagues the game.
Why can’t I gear doing only raids? Because Mythic+ offers much better gear at a far lower time investment and with “less difficulty” which will eventually force players into doing mythic+ regardless of whether they would like to or not. Don’t want to spend 3-5 weeks to get gear from your favorite content? Well that’s too bad, you just aren’t playing the game right.
This is awful. If the intention is to make players have the choice on whether to do raids, Mythic+, or PvP for gearing, Mythic+ just sucks away any hope for raids to be useful.
AND DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON VALOR GEAR. Progression and actually reasonable paths for gearing should not be limited to the forms of content that Blizzard can advertise for an e-sport (While firing everyone involved with actual e-sport titles, lol.)
TLDR: Raid gearing is awful, you are forced to go to Mythic+, and Mythic+ should be deleted.
Edit: Yeah, maybe me at midnight making a post didn’t turn out well.
36 Likes
Let’s delete raids instead.
44 Likes
This will be flagged but you’re right.
8 Likes
so your not getting invited to CN pugs cause of your Ilvl(on the end of a patch) and that somehow is m+ fault ?
17 Likes
Yes because you are forced to go to M+ in order to fill the gaps in raiding’s poor gearing. M+ is naturally that “option” because its the only other high-end PvE content which is available. I hate M+, hate doing it, and yet I still have had to do it to even get a chance at doing content that keeps me playing.
This happened in 8.3 too. Could never get AOTC as I would always get stonewalled with the only solution being “Do content you dislike” while the game pretends that “You still have a choice though!”
M+ and it’s effects on gearing have retroactively ruined raiding.
Edit: It is especially funny that Blizzard advertised this expansion as having all these “choices” while designing the game to force you into those “choices” regardless.
4 Likes
uhh im pretty sure raidings always been like that since wrath you didnt just gear up though raids you did heroic 5 mans previous tiers ect. linking achievements to prove youve done content has been a thing since achievements were brought into this game. and before achivement checks and raiderIO you would just armory people to make sure they werent bad.
2 Likes
if you did m+ in this patch you know that the loot sistem sucked and what raiders did to gear was pvp not m+
16 Likes
That does not change the fact that M+ has been severely buffed and improved as far as rewards go to practically force players wishing to do PvE content into them, while raiding has yet to receive any significant improvement or buff to gearing which makes it feasible or even fun.
At the start of the expansion when PvP was the only feasible gearing solution sure, it was what they used, but as you said, we are at the end of a patch and the game has been significantly improved in everything BUT raiding. The entire game is balanced around what is useful in M+ and M+ is STILL the only way to obtain gear right now from PvE content.
3 Likes
There are folks on our heroic raid team who don’t key at all and gear exclusively from the raid itself. We still got AotC weeks ago. Find a good guild instead of jerks and unrealistic pugs who don’t need you to overgear the content just to see it.
15 Likes
if you think the loot sistem on m+ is better now youre in for a rude awekening the valor sistem helped yes but you still need to drop and there’s a cap. So good luck on gearing there
2 Likes
M+ got nerfed in terms it used to drop 3 heroic raid pieces of loot now it drops 2 pieces 3 ilvls below heroic that sounds like a nerf to me. here’s something to dwell on raid primarily hasn’t changed since its inception sure they’ve added and dropped difficulties sure but raiding hasnt changed cuz it works and people like it
objectively false as they have buffed loot drops and nerfed/tweaked bosses so they’re more doable. the issue sounds more like youre trying to brute force your way though a raid by pugging. puggings the worst form of raiding join a guild make friends and clear the content at your pace. 
7 Likes
At this stage, N / H Raids are basically just transmog runs…
BFA was worse however, both N & H Raiding were pointless for gearing within a few weeks (at most) because you could spam +7 or 8’s (iirc) for Heroic Raid ilvl… and that’s without WF/TF.
SL fixed that (originally) where to get beyond 210 ilvl from M+ you had to rely on the weekly vault. This gave Heroic Raiding a bit more longevity but still Normal was just a Transmog run compared to M+.
At this late stage of the game, I suspect Valor farming is vastly more efficient than raiding… cant say for certain as having re-rolled my main to this Paladin I really CBF anymore until 9.1 (or my sub runs out).
The problem is, M+ is spammable and you can run (relatively) low keys for decent vault rewards. Anying above +2 will give you better Vault rewards than N CN, and above +7’s are better than H CN which is still hit or miss to pug (even with AOTC groups).
The biggest problem with Raids (IMO) is the gear is quickly outscaled by M+ and the Vault rewards are the same ilvl as the Raid (unlike M+ where the Vault rewards are higher) so they quickly lose their appeal.
1 Like
Nah, you are just loot crazy
I don’t think M+ should be deleted but I was hoping it would become it’s own separate path in SL… unfortunately with how the Great Vault works and raid loot scarcity M+ is more mandatory for a raider than ever and it sucks, for sure.
I tried it in BfA didn’t enjoy it, tried it in SL and got tired of it all even quicker.
5 Likes
Raiding outdated itself and that ruined raiding. Forced 20 man that have to be on tbe same server for the first while. It’s outdated design
2 Likes
Top tips. You can just do raids if you want.
As usual in these types of threads the m+ gang is out in force pretending that their infinitely spammable content that rewards higher Ilvl loot for failing is somehow inferior to raiding, and that m+ doesn’t totally invalidate normal and heroic raiding.
They’ll just reeeeeeee you down because they’re afraid of losing access to easy loot by failing their way through a +10.
11 Likes
I mean, this seems extremely disingenuous.
The only significant benefit over raiding that M+ has is the fact that yes you can run as many as you want so in theory if someone were to put an absolutely massive amount of time in in theory you could gear out in a much shorter calendar time but with FAR more time in game invested compared to someone raiding who(assuming a reasonably organized group) will clear normal and probably heroic with 6-8 hours of game time per week.
Valor is extremely limited, especially when the season reset happens. By week 2 you could upgrade anything besides rings/cloaks a total of…4 times? People only want to spend it on their BiS items. Ultimately it really comes down to basically everyone will be fully geared in their chosen method by the end of a given raid or M+ season.
Now you claim it’s mandatory to fill in your ilvl with M+ gearing. Are you in a progression raid guild trying to clear mythic ASAP? Whelp yeah, you’re gonna need to do a lot to be in that guild, you knew what you were in for when you went hard into a progression guild.
if that’s not the case, and you’re applying to group finder raids but not being accepted because of ilvl. I dont know what to tell you, run your own raid and take whomever you want I guess? Normal and Heroic arn’t so difficult that you need a lot of raid leading experience to get a group through and it would completely bypass any additional gameplay you feel you dont want to have to experience.
I will say that even if you completely destroyed M+ gearing and made it so that +20s gave LFR level loot to make sure that only raiding could ever gear people out for raids(we’ll ignore how that would make raiding completely mandatory for M+ at the moment) The fact of the matter is ilvl does not matter when going for group finder raids.
I am an ilvl 221 DH tank, I have successfully tanked 9/10 heroic, virtually every piece of gear on me is mythic level. It is extremely uncommon for me to be accepted to a heroic raid, and neigh impossible to get an invite to one that is on Sire. All thanks to the lack of an AOTC achievement. Now if I gave a crap I could just pay group to jump in on a heroic kill, they’re reasonably cheap these days, and boom I’m willing to bet my acceptance rate jumps though the roof.
TLDR: If you feel you are being unfairly excluded, that seems to be a MASSIVELY common sentiment on these forums, so start your own raid and dont worry about ilvl or raider.io score. EZPZ
5 Likes
Mythic+ has ruined a lot of things. Namely wow being an actual RPG instead of a Frankenstein Diablo game with this eSport speedrunning bullcrap. The day they decided to add that is pretty much a day wow ceased being an RPG. People like to talk about the decline of wow? For me the answer is very clear it was legion because that’s when they switch direction to add all this garbage.
Even warlords still felt like an RPG.
6 Likes