I’d love to see the data.
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All they did is add another grindy system to the mix that relies in repeating the same content over and over again. I like to progress through content, which I can still do, but M+ is built into the end game gearing progression now. Which people love to deny, but it is.
The devs have been using M+ as a crutch to keep players busy, in place of making actual content.
The rewards should match the effort. M+ has been way too lucrative since it’s inception.
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This is factually incorrect.
m+ destroyed wow. my friends list slowly died off since its inception in legion due to the fact that all of my friends are old school players that would only use dungeons as a stepping stone to raid and not a mandatory hamster wheel that will gear them out to keep their toon relevant for raiding and to secure their raid spot. and because of the fact that there are no lockouts it would cause severe burn out among them farming for near bis while waiting for raids.
not to mention all raid encounters now are currently designed in difficulty based off of you being near max ilvl due to the easy gear acquisition of m+. so running into a wall on a certain boss is much harder to overcome versus pre m+. there is no longer a power creep in raids via players getting gear upgrades week to week. players are now literally walking into raids with an equal ilvl to the highest ilvl boss drops. the fun factor (getting sweet gear) is gone.
with that being said…
removing m+ will only kill off the rest of the playerbase that stuck around because they actually enjoy it.
so here we are.
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Aren’t you familiar with raiderio?
The forum police will deny this, but this is in fact the reality of what has happened since the first raid in Legion was just blasted through.
M+ should just offer one weekly reward, this idea that you can farm dungeons endlessly for raid quality gear is just bad design.
I am. Does raiderio show the amount of unqiue accounts that don’t engage with M+ verses the ones that do?
A lot of the data is generated by the same accounts running many alts through M+ each week.
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I agree with this. Most users love the easy gear from M+. Others just go there to push higher keys and gain recognition (exclusive title, high IO).
So many of us would love the rewards being shifted back to raiding. Alot of us do the M+ because of the rewards. Not because we like it.
Doing 4-8 keys a week for the reward would be great. So we can focus on other things.
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I think some degree of limit makes sense but 1 piece of gear for 8 dungeons worth of content feels spiteful / from a place of deliberate bad faith.
Especially when M0s are moving onto a daily Lockout, and delves are being introduced as a no lockout way to acquire champion track loot solo.
Also blizzard needs to fix aspect crest acquisition. Mythic raid bosses being the only raid source does not really work.
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Nerfing M+ gearing is the way to go, not buffing raid loot drops.
Blizzard made a mess of the game with this quick and easy gearing through this sole system, and they wonder why people just flame out after 3-4 weeks of new content drops.
I don’t, this is about what you would get from a raiding. The game was in a better spot for the devs when loot took longer to acquire. Turning WoW into a Diablo clone hasn’t been the best idea.
I’m all for M+ sticking around, but the rewards need to rebalanced for the rest of the game. Turning raids into a loot fountain like M+ isn’t the answer. People just need to realize that Blizzard messed up when it came to the rewards for M+.
Even though it takes time to hit BIS grinding M+, the power you can get from M+ in a few weeks is just crazy. The game was not designed to accomodate this quick gearing. Blizzard can’t make new content fast enough.
It would make a lot of sense for them to rebalance M+ rewards with the rest of the game.
How long does it take to run 8 dungeons each week?
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In the first couple weeks on a level that awards max vault or at least hero track? Probably averaging 30-40 minutes a dungeon, longer than I spend full clearing a heroic raid. And that’s not counting assembly time.
I’d also say raid loot drops have decreased considerably since the times before m+. Tier for example didn’t even used to count as part of the loot table, it was just extra on top of the typical number of items. Things have gotten better since the omnitoken reintroduction in Aberrus though.
The huge acceleration in ilvl acquisition has mostly come from the crest system.
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So, have the vault give you 2 drops then. The dungeons themselves could just reward currency that can be used for transmog.
Blizzard could fix all this, they are just too stubborn to mess with their M+ baby.
Which just proves my point. M+ is by far more active based on that data compared to raids. Even if people run them with alts - greater activity by far.
What they can do is increase token acquisition for gear upgrade.
Better yet, introduce m+ specific gear. Add a modifier.
For example:
- Constitution.
Aligns with the forces against the void (TWW related) granting you extra % damage/healing/damage reduction while in a mythic plus dungeon.
Make the stats flat. 100 constitution per armor piece.
This set is exclusive to mythic plus. Token drops are not mode exclusive.
You could say this about pet battles, or heroic dungeons or LFR too.
More people probably run LFR and heroic dungeons than M+
No I couldn’t. We are debating raiding vs m+ here.
What would you do if by implementing this the raid participation goes even lower?
Minnienuker’s a troll. No debate to be had with that one.
They’ll spend all day trashing m+ in the forums with zero substance commentary
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So the rest of us suffer because you chose the grind life?
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Where is the suffering?
Yeah I know that. It’s still fun to see lesser minds failing to prove their point.
I’m on vacation so while my bbq is heating up why not also this debate? 
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I’d rather just let champion track from m+ be farmable and have a currency or other capped method by which I can run higher keys to upgrade champion track m+ items to hero track, and keep the vault as is.
That way you’re not speed running to hero track all slots in keys, but you can still put the time in to target something if you want to. And champion track loot is already infinitely farmable from non m+ sources so it doesn’t need to hold parity with normal raids.
Still gotta work out how crests fit into this, since raiding doesn’t provide a real way to cap aspects, but otherwise this feels pretty clean and fair.
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