This is just being intentionally obtuse imo. If you admit the shrinking the of the general playerbase than as someone with critical thinking, you can see how the argument the above person is applying that in the face of a shrinking playerbase 20man rosters are harder and harder to maintain.
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Taking away what people want leads to even less players.
Yes? So we should just do the same with the eventual death of the universe and just let mythic raiding sputter out?
ThatâsâŚcertainly a take.
But thereâs no real remedy.
So, if 10 man isnât healthy for the game, how is designing an entire ecosystem around hardcore 5 man content healthy for the game?
This thread has all the usual M+ trolls, just put them on ignore, you will thank me later for this advice. You canât reason with them one bit, they extremely entrenched in their views.
They couldâve stuck with 10 man and made it work or 25 or even 40. Itâs the matter of picking one size.
FFXIV does 8.
The assumption is that mass players wouldnât come back for 10man. There are thread after thread, youtube videos with thousands of comments about how 10man being removed killed their experience and their raid group. At the end of the day, you or I donât know what the numbers would end up.
but with blizzard doing this whole season 4 thingâŚwe have a perfect chance to find out now dont we? There isnât a RWF or balance to worry about, they are already experimenting. Go onâŚthrow 10man mythic in a season 4 to test interest. What do they have to lose? An admission to being wrong in WoD?
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But if you reinstate 10 man, you break up the current 20 man guilds. All for a gamble that then 10 man players might come back.
And making the highest difficulty flex would lead to rankings being a mockery.
And keep in mind, these 10 man players also need to not be satisfied with mythic plus for it to be a gain.
I mean, there is. Itâd just require work and effort and a bit (lots) of risk.
Both of which Blizzard is in short supply of as of late.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION: Theyâd have to do the following.
- Restructure what Raiding in WoW actually is. (The larger than life grandiose affairs are part of what holds raiding in wow back, weirdly enough. I donât feel like going into the details because I doubt anyone cares.)
- Introduce 10 Man Mythic Raiding, then actually balance the fights to be completely different for 10 man vs 20 man, so one isnât easier than the other outside of the logistics. (This would require basically creatingâŚ2 versions of each fight which I doubt Blizzard would even entertain)
- Drastically reduce the physical size of raid instances. (Less trash, more focus on bosses. This is just a personal peeve of mine but Iâm not particularly married to this idea).
- I dunno, party?
Before anyone gets their pants in a bunch, these are just my spitballing ideas of what I think could work. It all could objectively fail. But itâs at least something better than just letting it sputter to death or trying to kill other game modes to force people into a sputtering to death game mode instead.
What? You think raid or die is less time consuming than running a dungeon when you have free time? With M+ you donât need a schedule that you are tied down to. Which means itâs easier on those who âhave real lives budâ.
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If were being real honest. Most modern guilds are ~8 core clique members anyway. Idk, as recruitment boss churns seem to be at a peak, I have been in a lot of different guilds and itâs mostly the same. You have the core group who does all the keys togethers, plays other games together, always puts groups together, then you have alot of stragglers that if their wasnât a 20man requirement quite frankly wouldnât be there.
The main issue would be the top 1% guilds with big legacy and history with established rosters that have been together since the start but even then, most guilds that high have multiple teams anyway so really whats the difference? You just have MORE multiple teams within the same group like they are already doing.
Also, like I said itâs a season 4. Raid participation is in the gutter anway. Someone posted a graph and it was amazingly laughable. It couldnt get worse.
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ROFL, this is the main problem with M+. Classes really canât have unique kits, or strengths or weaknesses anymore, or else you are deemed an off metaclass, which means pugging M+ is almost impossible.
No other system in WoW has homogenized class and encounter design as M+ has. If you deny this, you are just utterly clueless.
Classes do have unique kits and pugging is done successfully every season.
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If classes didnât have unique kits then there wouldnât be a meta. But there is a meta, and many arenât part of it or close to being part of it.
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This complaint was in MoP before this kind of content ever existed. Tbh classes were more pruned during M+ (legion and bfa) than in MoP. Most of what the SL and Dragonflight homogenization did was bring back stuff that was around in cata and mop lol.
Oh, they elaborated quite a bit on why 10 man raiding was hard to design for. Basically, encounter design was kind of limited on what they could do with such a small raid size.
They also talked about trying to make raid encounters 10 man with 30+ specs in the game was very difficult, because the top metaclasses would be the only classes that would get invited to raids. This is still a problem to this day, and M+ just compounds this issue even more.
WoW class design was setup to support hardcore small group content. They honestly need to rebuild all the classes from the ground up if they want this game to survive with 5 man content being the focus of the end game.
I mean the 5 man content is the content that is thriving. So this is counter intuitive to your argument.
If your argument is the game isnât designed for small group size, then the small group size content should be the one seeing mass churn but itâs mythic raid.
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100%. He has me on ignore, but each class brings something different.
DK: Grip
DH: Darkness
Monk: Ring
Shaman: Lust, Earth Ele, Stun totem, Purge
Mage: Lust, Spell Steal
Priest: Mass Dispel, PI
Paladin: Freedom, BoP, Spellwarding, Sacrifice
Evoker: Mass Dispel, Buffs
Warrior: Shout
Rogue: Stuns, Stuns, Stuns, Shroud
Druid: Battle Res, AoE Silence, Push/Pull
Hunter: Traps, Lust
Warlock: Battle Res, Cookies
These are just some of the kits each class brings.
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Challenge modes my dude, they were balancing around this type of content since MoP.
Blizzard should have modernized raiding instead of trying to turn dungeons in this bastardized version of Greater Rifts.
Be careful Bigbadpumper, heâs going to get big mad and put you on ignore 
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But you donât want a modernized raid. The 20man format isnât modern. WoW is the only one that could make it work and it could be argued it only could because of the legacy their game has in their IP. No game that has release since wow has a 20man format and is competetive in the live market.
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No other game that I know has raids like wow that is entirely player-created groups. Aside from LFR ofc, but is that really raiding? Others rely on queued lobbies.