normal back then is present heroic.
current normal is the flex difficulty.
people forget that.
Rofl, okay, if you want to delude yourself into thinking vanilla raid was more difficult than normal now. If anything, it was even easier.
Regardless, even heroic has very easy and simple mechanics until you get to the last 2-3 bosses.
Would you assert that heroic Terros, Eranog, or council are significantly more complicated than Onyxia mechanically?
Real life hurt raiding not m+. aint no one got time for this type of gameplay anymore.
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Lol, youāre not wrong. I had way more time 15 +years ago
I enjoy raiding. I donāt really enjoy keys. In order to mythic raid, you really have no choice but to run 4-8 +20 keys a week. If you donāt, youāre really handicapping your guild. I donāt like that because I donāt really want to do that.
M+ might make for better raiders overall, but man, speed-wow is not fun to me. Itās a chore that enables me to do the fun thingāraiding.
The most annoying thing this expansion is that in order to raid in my two-day mythic guild, I have, over the course of the patch, had to run keys for a larger chunk of time each week than raid. Thatās not really true now that itās just to fill vault and isnāt to push IO up, but the point stands. M+ giving mythic raid level gear is not good for the game imo. I also donāt think that 20s are close to as difficult to complete as the bosses that drop 421 loot. Now, half the time, my mythic raid vault slots drop lower ilvl gear than my m+ slots for doing much easier content. Thatās bad.
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IDK, Iāve not had more than 2 max level vaults on either main this expac and Iām 417+ on both without winning a single roll in raid.
Your point is well taken though, I definitely still needed m+ to be competitive. I personally have no problem with multiple types of content being ideal for min/maxing but I also enjoy all pve content so Iām biased.
Yeah, you can do it without getting good vaults, but itās slower and in the current system anyway, really requires uncapped valor. Worse than that, it is frustrating for everyone else that sees you not putting in the same effort (if you donāt fill your vault with some options at least). Thatās certainly an issue I see in my guild anywayā4 +20s is a minimum expectation for main raiders. I donāt like that, but I also fully agree with it tbh. Weāre progressing mythic razageth, and every little bit of extra sauce will help.
Getting to 417 is also relatively easy now without the valor cap in the way. That said, vault or otherwise, I have run hundreds of keys this patch to have two mythic geared healers.
Yeah this is fair, weāre more of a casual āget one mythic vaultā guild and otherwise I just do keys with friends or guildies so if I were progging razzy g and not getting three 421 options itād be a problem.
Iām getting more Max options than the majority of the raid team.
I assume if you are progging mythic Raz that also means you are extending and getting 0 gear from the raid until heās dead.
We havenāt, though we probably will be starting soon. But the m+ expectation isnāt new.
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How do you distinguish between the path of least resistance and the path of most fun?
If two activities are competing for the same audience and one side starts to become more popular, how hard should the devs try to shepherd more players to less popular activity? Or do they follow the players down whichever road players choose to spend their time in?
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You have a point.
It is much quicker but it is not effortless.
And hereās a thoughtā¦ maybe mythic raiding isnāt fun for mostā¦ 
Thereās a reason why most people donāt go higher than keystone master either.
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Raiding has been hurting raiding. M+ keeps people around longer because it is so much more accessible and repeatable.
Problem with raids:
-Much greater time investment in one sitting. Caters to people who can be in one place
with no distractions for long periods of time.
-Progression is fun but reclearing the raid is like pulling teeth.
-Wipes and run backs waste too much time. However, this has gotten a lot better in
Dragonflight.
-Mythic raiding requires organization and time investment akin to a part time (many
cases a full time) job.
Not many advantages to raiding anymore aside from the first few weeks progressing on it. I donāt plan on raiding until 10.1.
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iām not sure what youāre disagreeing with.
i made 3 statements:
- normal back then is present heroic. [True]
- current normal is the flex difficulty. [True]
- people forget that. [case by case true or false]
Didnāt read the wall of text, but raidin sucks. Once they make a decent raid Iāll actually care again. Zero interest in killing 8-10 bosses and getting zero loot 2 weeks in a row.
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Correct. I would not raid if they mess up mythic+, I will just not play at all.
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I would also argue that yes whilst mythic plus has affected raid participation so has LFRā¦ Back in the day you had to raid to gear, you had to raid to complete specific raid quests now you can just hop into LFR to gear and complete any raid related quests.
This also damaged guilds too, in the past before LFR you were āforcedā to raid and so you for the most part needed a guild, today none of that matters.
Raiding is also not that fun anymore i mean compared to raids such as SSC, TK, ICC and BoTā¦ raids are harder for everyone now to make it harder for the world first raiders, we all suffer because of them not to mention that fact barely any loot drops.
Meh raiding sucks i am glad we have mythic plus, even with the annoying affixes because i can say 100% personally if we didnāt have M+ i would have stopped playing WoW a long long time ago.
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CRZ killed guilds. Anything else is just a drop in the bucket.
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100% this too