I guess you glossed over the part where you can look at Archon and see the damage differences are mute… Id rather be a ape i guess then a Blizzard simp… Im sorry but i just cant play a class i dont enjoy so i can sit at the cool kids table. As ive stated over and over if you go to archon and look at details the difference in damage is mute between most classes. I can understand warlock doesnt have lust. but it does have brez which can be huge in keys. Theres drawbacks to all classes.
Eluvien, warlock is still a good class. It doesnt have lust but it does have Brez which ive saved many of keys with getting tank or healer back up in middle of a boss fight. For the sake of arguement lets say thats all correct. It still doesnt explain why other builds who have lust and shorter kick timers(warlocks kicks arent an issue) are also struggling to get games. Warlocks do have curses. And Warlock aoe is pretty good. not best but as i said when the number one class is getting 1.5m and im getting 1.3m that difference is mute.
The issue isnt really class specific as ive discovered in this thread but more this expansions design. People will always choose higher ilvl no matter the class. I cant catch up to the 620s of the world because i cant even get in a game. Its a circular door issue that no matter what i do im stuck outside. Its a crap design.
It’s never going to change unless the grouping system changes. People want to get their stuff done with as little pain as possible. People want to time things. The timer is the root of a lot of the evil that comes with this… game mode? Whatever you call it. If you can’t time the key, then the run is garbage for most people. Timing the key isn’t even good enough in and of itself… they incentivize completely destroying the timer by making +2 and +3 a thing which further adds to the problem of group composition and gear levels because most people would probably like to skip levels on their key and get more rating out of a clear, and you need gear/comp for that.
If I start a group for a +2 and I find 4 620s in the queue, there’s no reason not to take them. If I start a group and literally the worst DPS class and spec is in the queue, there’s no reason why I have to take them. I want the highest ilvl, and I want the classes with the most damage/utility. Anything less is completely unacceptable, and if I can’t have everything, then it’s not worth doing at all. Now for the record, I don’t run my own groups, but I imagine that’s the attitude of a lot of people who do make their own groups. It’s like… do you want to have a harder time doing the thing, or an easier time doing the thing? Who picks “harder”? Do you want to +1 something, or do you want to +2 or +3 something? Who says “just a +1 please”? It’s the nature of the beast.
I’m a 2489 non meta Tank and the problem is similar. The alternative is “form your own key”
When doing this I dropped my 11 wake to a 9 due to deaths and leavers outside of my control. I invited 2400ish 620 players. At these levels keys are timed or disbanded after a single wipe. On the 10 key we were crispy clean until stitchflesh, started him with a little over 8 mins on timer. Healer missed hook for the 2nd pull, dps fell behind on adds and we wipe. Boss was at 6 % with about 5 mins of time. Healer leaves.
The ‘disband after a wipe’ thing strikes me as so wasteful, but I can see why one would do it if the ONLY thing one needs there is rating…
But what confuses me is how taboo it seems to be in M+ to actually communicate and set/ask for expectations. Like asking ‘what do we do if this is clearly not going to be timed?’ people get confused or pissy. It should be something people ask in every group.
The dungeon pool and affixes can affect the group finder. For example, Grim Batol has a very high requirement for a timing key. The requirements for Grim Batol IMO are good kicks (due to the change on CCs), decurses and DKs. Grim Batol has a bunch of casters and an insane curse. DKs are the only class that can clear tentacles regularly and is immune to Abyssal Corruption from the last boss. DKs make the last boss MUCH easier than the group without DKs.
Blizzard should be tuning the dungeons more aggressively than last week ago. Voidbound affix encourages the group to have DKs, Shamans and other meta DPS because they are the best specs for killing Voidbound.
It does have some merit, when introducing a death penalty, Ilevel makes a huge difference. Players with Ilevel are now more desirable in M+ as its more about surviving now then pure skill. Skill only goes so far aswell.
It must be a hard thing to balance. Do they balance it against max ilevel or the entry level point?
Not hard to believe that needs to be tweaked.
Ilvl makes a difference for sure, not going to argue that; however, ilvl only determines potential dps and survivability. Ilvl alone won’t prevent someone from getting 1 or 2 shot versus someone who is 10+ ilvls below who uses defensives, personals, and side steps out of cleaves and swirlies. I am a firm believer that skill will take a person much further than ilvl.
Hard to say for sure because I don’t think I’ve seen an official statement, but I believe they tune/scale things top down. Top being the highest rewards, so starting with +10 with the rewards from +9 and working down from that.
There are also other things to consider such as the % of populate they expect to complete the highest form of content. Historically, 30-35% got KSM and ~5% used to get KSH in SL. CE in Raid equivalent I’m less knowledgeable of, but I think is also around the 1-5%.
The problem was that M+ at the top end of the rewards was becoming too diluted where it jumped from ~5% at the top rewards to over 20% now getting KSH in DF.
People became way too accustomed to M+ becoming undertuned for the rewards.
We are seeing the effects of Delves being too rewarding and de-incentivizing some players from doing lower M+ keys. This is exactly what happened with Raids where M+ was too rewarding. They needed to raise the bar with M+ to bring it back in line with Raids because the end game pillars need to compliment each other, not make the other one obsolete.
Right, Apples to Apples in dragon flight, i think that would have worked well.
Its the layers they injected onto it that caused a disruption in the ecosystem. Some were not even implement properly on PTR. Now on the high end it scales so hard that those players are stuck farming the reward bracket. Any fixes on that will certainly help que issues.
In the past, i would have agreed with this for sure, take the player not the class, but now that trend is fading, You can see some of this data on raider io. Its take the ilevel and classes that don’t die easily. Aug Evokers and DKs seem to do well.
I don’t have any hard opinions on delves, I think anything to make the vault less awkward is an improvement, especially now that they took the ring sockets out.
I dunno, I still feel like people are taking IO/Score + Class composition into account more than Ilvl + Class. No amount of ilvl will save a player past like +5 from a swirlie, same with boss encounters without using defensives.
I also think the ilvl isn’t a good metric because anyone running +4s can get to 610+ from upgrading through crests. Ilvl alone won’t differentiate a player who is running 4s vs running 8s.
Yes, to some degree. You certainly want a proper composition, but the players farming the reward bracket are unlikely to change the composition they have when pushing, they will focus on what they know works and what they want to practice.
I see your a tank player, you may have a preference in healers.
You have two options to pick for your key : pick one.
624 shaman - completed an 8
610 shaman - completed an 9
You know at 624 ilevel, they are not jumping in swirlies. Gear at some level does represent a level of skill.
My point is those players used to have progression points at their own levels. If we are all contesting the same bracket, its only a compounding issue.
Yes, I think especially early season gear can represent effort put into grinding keys and crests. In your hypothetical situation though, I would actually take the shaman who completed the +9 with lower ilvl because they demonstrated skill at a higher difficulty especially with lower ilvl. In my head, that person has more skill that is able to compensate for the lower ilvl. Whereas the higher ilvl is farming for gear in lower keys.
I think we look at this differently and neither one of us are wrong, just different.
I’ve lucked out in the last few 8’s I’ve ran that even though were not gonna make it or over time we continue on. This isn’t end of season, we still need to see the damage and patterns. One of the best memories I have of m+ was on a failed BRH 29. 2nd boss down, no way to make the timer, random pugs in voice. We’ve accepted we can’t do time and are going to disband. I request to pull everything to the stairs to see if we can do it. Group agrees. We pull it off cleanly and I see the highest numbers I have ever seen on my lock. It was glorious.
It’s more than that bro. Mythical used to be fun but some one at blizzard had a wonderful idea of locking people out of mythics by making them harder than hell this season.
They are trying to kill off mythics and lose more players.
Almost every group is Oceanic at 1:30 AM. That’s at least one big reason you’re getting declined. Before any white knights show up, the OP is on a NA server.