Mythic+ Affix Design

I believe a complete rework of affixes is overdue for the upcoming expansion, but I don’t want to just say that without providing feedback or suggestions, so here I will lay out my detailed thoughts on the current problems with affixes and how I believe they can be fixed.

— What is the goal of an affix? —
Since their creation, the goal of affixes has been to provide a unique dungeon experience from week to week. Inherently there is nothing wrong with this idea, but the design philosophy behind affixes since their inception has been all about increasing dungeon difficulty, rather then increasing fun. Dungeons already scale infinitely so the logic that every single affix ALSO needs to make dungeons more difficult is flawed. Players shouldn’t be logging on each week wondering ‘how bad are the affixes this week’, they should be excited. Right now the most excitement I see is relief on weeks where the affixes are the least obnoxious, rather then the most fun (side note: there should never be weeks that are significantly easier/better but that’s a separate tuning discussion).

— How can we change the affix system to make it more fun, while still creating a challenge? —
Affixes should still be challenging, so I’m not suggesting that we make every affix give us infinite power, but there are many ways to create an affix system that is both challenging and fun. I believe the best way to do this is to create a positive and negative affix pool. Each week you get 1 positive affix and 1 negative affix. Positive affixes would be things like the blessings in torghast, while negative affixes would essentially be like the affixes we have now. This would maintain the unique dungeon experience, and challenges, while making affixes something you are excited about rather then dread.

— What should be done with the current affix pool? —
We’ve had a very similar set of affixes since the original creation of Mythic+ almost 6 years ago. Every expansion there are a few removed / changed / added, but that’s about it. It’s time for something new. When creating these new affixes it’s important to look at the current affix pool and assess what people dislike and why.

  • Why is Bolstering so universally hated, even after the nerfs? Because it slows dungeons down and forces you to do smaller pulls. There’s a big distinction between creating affixes that are challenging, and creating affixes that simply slow you down with little room for outplay.
  • Necrotic is an example of an affix that has strong outplay potentional, but is simply awful to play around from a tank, healer and dps perspective. While its good that this affix is challenging and rewards smart play, any affixes that force you to constantly run around kiting mobs instead of fighting is bad. It’s extremely unfun for the tank, awful for the healer who can’t help outside of maybe one or two emergency buttons, and terrible for dps who have to deal with mobs constantly running away from their damage throughout the entire dungeon. This same exact logic can be applied to Sanguine: while its good that there is outplay, the challenge of Sanguine is simply not fun for anyone.
  • Inspiring is another great example of an affix design that should be avoided. Any affix that removes your ability to CC mobs is counterproductive to the nature of Mythic+. In lower keys, 90% of the time someone just CCs the Inspired mob, then you pull the pack away and fight it separate, which turns this affix into nothing but just a way to slow down the dungeon similar to Bolstering. In higher keys, you either avoid packs with inspired completely by skipping them, or you just brute force your way through by popping cooldowns. Almost all of the difficulty of trash in Mythic+ is outplaying mobs by preventing their dangerous casts through CCs or interrupts. Inspired actually does the opposite of what a good affix should do, which is promote mechanical outplays. Instead it forces you to either ignore the affix completely or say screw mechanics we’ll kill it before it kills us.

All these examples are to make a point that the goal of negative affixes should be to create challenges that are difficult but fun to play around. Lets take Explosive as an example: currently it has a chance to spawn for each mob in the group. In lower key levels / pugs this basically does nothing but slow the dungeon down by limiting the amount of mobs your group can pull (same issues as bolstering). In higher key levels it doesn’t really affect your group at all outside of your healer who simply gets to spend 90% of their globals in every single key that week killing explosives. So what can change about this affix that would maintain a challenge but be more fun to play around and not needlessly slow down the dungeon? Lets say a large bomb spawned randomly while in combat (how many mobs you were in combat with had no effect on how often the bomb spawned). The bomb could be picked up and dropped, similar to Halondrus, but if a player is holding it when it blows up, rather then dealing party wide damage it only deals damage to the holder. Each time it is picked up it resets its timer and is reduced in strength by X%, so you choose who it blows up on and how intense the damage is. This is just an example of how I think affixes can still be challenging, but actually engaging / fun.

— Tyrannical and Fortified —
The community has been very vocal about its frustrations with Tyrannical and Fortified since Legion and it has only gotten worse over time. The idea behind these affixes is to add even more variance to keys from week to week by switching the difficulty focus from trash to bosses. On Tyrannical weeks bosses feel insanely long and drawn out while trash feels like a breeze. Meanwhile on Fortified trash feels extremely punishing while bosses just kind of fall over. The most frustrating thing is that the perfect balance for dungeons where bosses and trash both feel like a challenge is just removing those affixes entirely. The damage scaling of Tyrannical also causes the majority of the difficulty to fall on your healer since mechanically nothing changes, everyone just takes way more damage and the fight is simply much longer. (Sidenote: Tyrannical damage scaling also makes some bosses legitimately impossible at key levels that can be done easily on Fort weeks because their abilities 1 shot. While this is really only a 1% player problem, it’s still a problem. It also pigeonholes players off of certain specs that can’t live high tyrannical unavoidable damage).

— Seasonal Affixes —
When Seasonal Affixes got introduced it seemed like a great idea, and for the most part they have been a really great addition to Mythic+. Reaping aside, which of course was the goat, the best Seasonal affixes have been the ones like Awakened, Prideful & Encrypted. These affixes were huge successes becauses they employed the “kiss/curse” concept where you had to deal with something negative to gain a positive effect. Tormented also had this but the lackluster nature of the positive effect was what turned people off (also the slow aura on last boss because killing him was never worth was extremely obnoxious). Seasonal affix benefits should be highly impactful and enable you to do something your group otherwise could not have done, which was where Tormented missed the mark. For example, enabling really unique routes with Awakened / Wo or doing massive pulls with Prideful / Urh, etc.

The biggest change I’d make to Seasonal Affixes is applying it to all key levels. When Seasonal affixes were first introduced, they started at a higher level because they were affixes like Infested, Reaping and Beguiling which purely made the dungeon more difficult. With the new design philosophy of Seasonal affixes, there is no reason everyone shouldn’t experience them at all M+ key levels, in fact they often make keys easier.

— The Ideal Mythic+ Affix System —
1 Seasonal Affix on all key levels
1 positive & 1 negative affix, both introduced at +6 key level
12 week rotation of 6 positive and 6 negative affix lineups, unique rotation each season

Those are all my thoughts for now, apologies for the extremely long read I’m just passionate about M+ and want to see it grow/thrive.

98 Likes

No thanks. Positive affixes create an even worse push meta than we currently have, as you wait for the most beneficial positives to push and feel like you’re gimped when they’re not up.

They’re borrowed power times borrowed power. I want to overcome challenges with my character, not need a once a month bonus to prop me up. Positive affixes are one of the worst suggestions I’ve ever heard if I’m being honest.

Now, I think rotating reasons to want to play are a good idea, but that should come in the form of rewards. Like, time X dungeons per week to earn X trinket could be cool - wowhead would make posts when the mastery bell works quest was up, and I think I’d there was a rotating reward that could be awesome.

5 Likes

Hard disagree. Only being punished each time you step into the dungeon feels like torture, especially as the dungeons get harder by default at each new key level. Plus, having a curse affix that maybe needs you to properly use your kiss affix could be a cool way to implement a challenge in itself. Basically, we just don’t want a curse/curse/curse/seasonal affix rotation anymore. it’s boring. “oh no, spiteful, better walk away from the adds that are still alive” isn’t fun.

12 Likes

Bolstering is the worst

9 Likes

I disagree. I think if you have an even mix of positive and negative affixes it would actually decrease the idea of “push weeks” because any week could be a push week. It would remove the sanguine/necrotic week where every single tank in my guild disappears for the week because its just so awful. There will always be affixes that people will gravitate toward no matter what. I just don’t want to see weeks where logging on to run a key let alone multiple seems like a massive chore.

8 Likes

Ellesmere senpai notice me!!

1 Like

I’m pretty sick of being able to push keys like 3 of the 12 weeks in the cycle. I don’t want to play boltstering, inspired, sanguine, explosive or storming and spiteful weeks simply because of how irritating they are. almost all the affixes should just get removed, but blizzard wont do that because of their abuse/reward cycle they seem to stick to. Good expansion/bad expansion (or bad/bad in the case of bfa and sl) good week/bad week, 2-3 bad seasons, 1 better final season etc… Also I dont understand their current hate for melee, almost every pack has a frontal cone, and add to that the 2 melee exclusive affixes.

3 Likes

Sure.

That’s a tuning issue to an extent though. Blizzard has just been awful about tuning. Why do we think if we reinvented the wheel they’d suddenly improve the tuning?

Look how long it took to make both bolstering and necrotic not total :peach:. Why would a new system not be starting from scratch?

Completely agree. I hate running keys for this very reason, “they are not fun.”

At first I was like, “Oh HELL no!”, but after thinking about it some more I realized it would be like Hot Potato and actually sounds like it has real potential to be fun.

2 Likes

Caught wild Blap.

Although I appreciate the well thought out post and respect OPs opinion, I disagree. I personally enjoy the variances in difficulty and find that to be one of the fun things about mythic +. Our gear and borrowed power at the current time makes us stronger as we progress (tier, dom sockets, legendaries ect) if we add “positive affixes” it starts to feel more and more like a mini game (torghastesq), which is something that I do not enjoy. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think annoying for the sake of being annoying is good design either, however I like the affixes to be hard and equally hard would be ideal for me. I think they are doing a good job at tying to achieve the latter, although there will always be work to be done with balance.

1 Like

I agree with OP and hate all the simping for this awful M+ design that has made toxicity rampart (including mine) as well as drove off a good portion of the playerbase.

3 Likes

Pray tell how having a positive CDR reduction affix 2 out of 12 weeks resolves “rampant toxicity”.

Your post comes across as “DAE M+ bad” which is just useless feedback.

I like the idea of reworking all the affixes. Most of them are more not-fun than difficult. The ones we push on are the most passive ones, and I feel like that’s a design problem. I agree overall that affixes should change up the dungeon a bit.

I really like your idea for hot-potato affix. That’s pretty neat. I get what Sentenzà is saying too, though. These kiss/curse affixes would have be balanced just as much, the idea that every week could be a push week is super intoxicating.

Affixes that change how you play, but don’t add or subtract from the timer. Make it happen blizzard.

2 Likes

Seasonal affixes being applied to all keys is a fantastic idea. Feels weird that m+ only gets changed every season for people pushing 10+ keys.

1 Like

Yea, I think this would be really cool. Keep in mind that, as you point out later, the seasonal affixes for Shadowlands have all been positive. I think this is good but I would call this a major affix. Having a minor positive affix could definitely be interesting! It would be important to balance how these match up with other affixes though, so we don’t end up with awful weeks and trivial weeks. We definitely want the relative difficulty of each week to be more or less the same.

While this has been historically true, I think the changes to Necrotic have made it a much more interesting affix. I think, of any of the affixes so far, Necrotic is the most interesting in that it provides opportunity to really get to know your class mechanics in order to play around it. Unfortunately, not all classes are created equally. Some have much more options to deal with this than others, especially at the tank level.

Still, I noticed in the last week that Blizzard has done a much better job of tuning this affix so that certain tanks, or well coordinated groups, can clear. The duration of the debuff is much shorter and the amount of unkitable mobs seems to be reduced, allowing for more opportunities to clear. There are still a few places that are perhaps more challenging than they should be though, such as Ardenweald in DoS after the waterfall/dragon area. The big bird downstairs takes forever to die and the debuff stacks so quickly that unless you’re a paladin, monk, DH (or maybe venthyr), you’re going to have a hard time because the bird sticks to you like glue :smiley:

Completely agree. It’s really silly that for the entirety of SL, a +9 is actually harder than a +10. It also means that people who can’t go that high (which is more folks than you might think) never get to learn the affix. Or they don’t learn it and have a hard time with it when they do hit +10. Having it start from +2 makes a lot of sense.

In fact, I think we could probably just have all the affixes apply at +2. As you’ve pointed out, we already have scaling making each progressive key harder. If there was a lot of worry about a +2 with all affixes struggling, tune affixes on keys below +10 a little lower, but I think it’s important for people to have a good opportunity to learn them without having sharp difficulty jumps.

Just my thoughts on that though.

Reaping still remains the most enjoyable affix to date, mindless aoe = fun

1 Like

Spiteful is annoying simply because you cant progress in some dungeons until they’re all killed. The maze in mists and flying across platforms in spires.

Can’t wait for this affix to be over

4 Likes

Spiteful fix: Melee hit damage reduced by 20% and no longer keeps you in combat.
Sanguine fix: Pools healing on enemies reduced by 50%.

So far we haven’t noticed any huge problems with affixes besides the already applied fixes.

Tyrannical is harder but not by much. There’s a big caveat here though; if your tank isn’t pullin big then you’re going to feel like the timer is very punishing. You should save LOTS of time nuking down 2-3 packs of trash and spend it on the long boss fights.

We’ll have to see how this week is but since bolstering drops of after 20 seconds or so you can just kite a messed up pull around instead of wiping.

In the past there were weeks where I wanted to not play but lately I’ve enjoyed every week.

Hey, it’s ellesmere the sandwich lord himself. I haven’t timed anything higher than a 21 this season so I’m not on the level of the OP, but I don’t have a huge problem with the affixes. There’s a lot I agree with though.

Regarding tyr/fort, I have made a thread similar to what you describe. It feels so odd and disjointed to have trash be insanely hard and the boss fall over and vice versa. It would be like if one of the raid bosses had like no mechanics and was just like a target dummy while the rest of the bosses were like usual. It feels strange and doesn’t make for a smooth experience. I would prefer to either scrap these affixes completely or just cut the effect by at least 50%. That way there wouldn’t be this huge difference in difficulty between trash and bosses.

I agree that having affixes such that certain weeks are “push” weeks isn’t good either. I don’t think having a positive affix with a negative affix would change this. I’m not against the idea of a positive and negative affix, I just don’t think it would solve this problem unless the effects were very small.

An idea that might be a possible solution to the “push week” problem is what if they adjusted the timer per affix combination? I understand this would take time to tune correctly, but at this point we know which affixes are faster than others. Implemented well, this could allow for every week to be a push week because you wouldn’t be racing against a static, unchanging timer. You could still push in the harder affixes since the timer would become more lenient with the harder affixes. This might be logistically difficult to implement, but I can’t really think of another way of preventing push weeks short of carefully designed affixes or minimally impactful affixes.

1 Like