Mythic+ Affix Design

I also agree with OP. However, I believe that most of the current affixes, because they’re “not fun” (i.e. hard to outplay), it makes more sense to significantly change most of them rather than just scrap everything and start from scratch.

That being said I would still remove the following affixes:

  • Bolstering: the problem with Bolstering is that regardless of the week it falls on it makes the key harder than it should be. It also punishes classes that are good at AoE/funnel damage because if you screw up you have a GIGASEAGULL and that’s no fun.

  • Sanguine/Storming: like OP, I agree that Sanguine and Storming are challenging but not in a fun way. It’s also a big middle finger to melee.

I would change the following:

  • Spiteful: I think it’s be interesting if the Spiteful mobs that spawned acted more like mini-Pridefuls: no melee attack, they just stand in place and pulse AoE damage. Killing one gives you a 10-second stacking buff to damage and healing.

  • Necrotic: So Necrotic sucks because it’s really only a healer/tank problem. And since it’s a -heal debuff it punishes healers without good OHNO buttons. I’d change it to be a +dmg taken debuff so that the skill is in rotating defensive cooldowns, increasing the amount of time you can tank before you need to kite.

  • Fortified/Tyrannical: I’d have the scaling stop at +10. If you’re doing 10s you’re good enough for at least heroic raiding so it’s silly to keep it beyond that.

The rest are generally okay and don’t need to be changed. Yes that includes Inspiring. It’s surprising that people haven’t put forth the idea of funneling the Inspiring mob to kill it quickly before handling the rest of the pack…

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I think more high risk/high reward affixes should be implemented. For example, grievous also gives 5% damage bonus per stack.

But then again, this sounds like more healer punishment so I don’t know. Maybe someone smarter than I could toy with the idea.

I’m not even trolling, but I like the affixes in their current state more than your suggestions.
I find the reason people get frustrated with affixes is they choose not to deal with them appropriately-
My melee friends say Spiteful makes them want to not play. Ok, why’s that? Because you face tank their hits even though you are given standard aggro indicators. In addition to that, the spirit aggroing you glows, and has a special eyeball icon above it’s head. Yet you face tank… That is a player problem, not an affix problem.
Oh but wait, it’s not fair that ranged don’t really deal with spiteful. Ok, so use that to your advantage, your dps is lower because you have to dodge spirits, but hey, that Hunter in the back is basically freecasting as if there was no affix at all, so it balances.

The game is not difficult, people choose to not do well. That’s why so many subs are passionately adamant that ML never comes back, so they can be bad but still get communist style loot. That’s why people buy carries and boosts with wowtokens. People choose to be bad, and this game is very forgiving on it.

Affixes have been sorely nurfed since their introduction, and it is to the detriment of M+. Easier affixes broaden the spectrum way too much, and it looks very intimidating for new players to get all the way up to whatever 15, 20 or 20+~ it’s 2022, so people are going to say “why bother”, especially when LFR seems to be where most tier pieces come from.

The only grievance I have is affixes that break your spell kit. AMS does nothing against Necrotic, Death Strike doesn’t remove a stack of grievous. ??? That’s degenerate gameplay, when your abilities that make you different from the next class are completely taken out of your kit (unless they literally make that an affix like Nefarian class calls).

Well, necrotic isn’t magic so…

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Thanks. It used to mitigate before you played WoW I guess. That’s who that small part of the whole message was for.

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Also, look at your team. It’s not me vs you as a dps, or melee vs ranged in a TEAM. It’s a common goal of beating a timer. Last week on murlocs I got nearly no help running for Necrotic, that’s why I have the fleetfooted conduit in.
My grip, multigrip, abom’s limb, DND and tank positioning of mobs is absolute gold for sanguine, etc, and even when used well, people still choose to get hit by Spiteful.
I never see DKs use AMS.
I rarely see DHs use Darkness.
I extremely rarely get Misdirection or Blessing of Sacrifice.
The whole team has to work as a cohesive group to solve problems, and that is probably the actual problem folks have with affixes.

You mean before it was changed 2 expansions ago? You still mad?

You clearly don’t know who OP is.

idk why you are so into me, but like I said in another thread you tried to troll me on, I have a boyfriend

It’s not trolling. You’re just dumb.

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idk why you are so into me, but like I said in another thread you required attention from me, I have a boyfriend. Please stop with the constant harassment, again.

Please stop believing that you have anything to offer the 8th best m+ healer worldwide.

What? Just remove the idiotic affixes, how is that tuning?

I don’t think it’s just tuning. Several affixes are conceptually guaranteed to feel terrible.

Necrotic isn’t as bad now, but kiting isn’t a gameplay move tanks generally sign up for, and certainly not in a format that’s as prevalent as Necrotic week. It’s one thing if a trash or boss mob has a kiting mechanic for a short period (and historically, tanks have even gotten to a point often where one can just pop cooldowns and tank through the kite mechanic for funsies), and being told you’re just going to “do kiting” on every pull for a week.

That said, I think the operating point of having some fun activities is that the differences aren’t likely to get as drastic. Push weeks are a thing because the differences become major (to the point of literally enabling going up a couple of levels at the highest end), and the prevalence of a role in certain weeks dies down a lot. People aren’t as likely to boycott an entire week that’s just a bit off on numbers tuned, especially if the affix mechanic is considered “fun”.

Here’s my thoughts in general.

I think the Seasonal Affix should be something that’s dropped in fairly early. If not at +2, I’d be down with +2-3 being no affixes (to be intro level), and have affixes start at +4.

I’m not necessarily a fan of the positive/negative affix system, but that’s only because I think I’ve seen too much duplication across various systems with these sorts of generic concepts. The same Blessing/Torment thing is used in Torghast, and I’d see them porting exactly some of those over into affixes - just like they literally copied Torghast anima powers and plonked them into Legendaries, or probably will into talents next expac. And frankly, part of the issue in Torghast is that most of them are not fun either.

Instead, my personal preference would be if affixes were 1 or 2 things that kicked in, and that could still rotate week to week, but I’d rather the focus of affixes be on new gameplay objectives.

To tie in with that, I think I should comment that I think the M+ approach of a timed objective has been a missed opportunity on what M+ was initially billed as, and loses sight of the fact that there are different types of challenges within the game. And frankly, even in the absense of an explicit timer, people would have a natural tendency to go/finish as quickly as possible anyway.

So what sort of stuff can I personally think of?

  • Timer - A timer is activated when you start the keystone. Finishing within the limit awards you full points and an upgraded keystone, and any finish beyond the timer gives reduced points and a downgraded second item (fairly similar to current timer behaviour).
  • Immortal - Complete the run with no player having to Release spirit or receive an out-of-combat res. Effectively no deaths, but it allows battleres to remain a useful mechanic. Currently almost anything challenging requires no wipes, but this raises the bar beyond that. Meeting those requirements gives you full points, for every player that has to Release, you get progressively lower score, and downgraded second item.
  • Surgical Precision - 5 targets across the dungeon are marked on your map. You must kill all 5 and complete the run, but any extra/unnecessary mob you kill lowers your score beyond full. You could pepper Invis pots around, make the targets get stronger as more targets die, stuff like that to spice it up.
  • Hard mode - I think this is where I’d prefer to see Tyrannical have gone, but I’d much prefer it if the way it worked is that it gave bosses either an extra mechanic, or an extra secret phase that has to also be beaten. How would I score this? This is the probably the closest to other affixes, but I’d say you start off with a pool of score + a buffer, let’s say 100 god points. Each death takes away 5 god points, and any deaths on bosses takes away 20 instead. So it’s not QUITE like Immortal, but heavily accentuates good play on bosses, and battle resses won’t save me from losing points when you mess up. You can also deal with one full wipe (if nothing else happens), and still make it.
  • Endurance - You do the run, except you’re occasionally told to live through things you really shouldn’t. How would I implement this? Probably something like all trash mobs, when killed, live on in Zombie mode for 5 additional seconds before dying. THe last mob in a pack lives for 10 seconds in Zombie mode, and does severely increased damage (e.g. 200%), and all CC lasts for 33% of the time it normally does. Bosses last for an additional 20 seconds in Zombie mode when the encounter ends, with the same 200% increased damage, but no additional special phase transitions or fatal mechanics can trigger during Zombie mode (e.g. Mueh’zala won’t phase, Ingra Maloch won’t just pop Death Shroud, Millificient won’t just pop Aerial Barrage and leave you screwed, etc.). Any death to Zombie mode mobs reduces your score.
  • Chain pulling - The challenge is to stay in combat as long as possible. Any time spent out of combat would lower your score, fairly simple. I personally think this is the weakest idea, but it probably belongs in the pile.
  • Twisted Fate - This sort of thing would be about throwing sheer chaos into the mix. If you say have 2 Orbs that 2 players of different roles can pick up, and while they have them, they swap roles. A healer and a dps means the healer gets a certain % reduction to all but self-healing they do, but do % more increased damage with all abilities. For a dps who transforms into a healer, they become friendly to mobs and hostile to party members, but all “damage” they do to players instead “heals” them. Stuff like that. When 2 players pick up an orb, they keep it for 2 minutes. Healers and tanks can only pick up an orb every 4 minutes (forcing you to cycle between healer and tank), damage dealers can only pick up an orb every 5 minutes (forcing you to cycle between all dps). You need to keep it cycling constantly to retain perfect score, any time spent where an Orb is on the ground loses you points.
  • Spirit Link - This should be the simplest one to explain, all trash mobs in a pack are HP linked. They all stay up until they all die. The increased danger of dealing with more mechanics all the time should be offset by certain cleave effects being amplified.

Now these are just basic concepts that I’ve thought of in the last … 15 minutes. I’m not saying all of them are good (I’m personally not a fan of a couple), but others can come up with better idea, or probably iterate on concepts to make them better. The second part from that is to take a basic challenge idea and flesh is out to actually create a full affix. I also think it’s a good principle that nothing should arbitrarily make things take longer than usual. I also think it’s a good principle that people shouldn’t be encouraged to stand around waiting for cooldowns for every pull. And here I think some of this could use kiss/curse concepts.

My solution to people waiting around for cd’s would be that after 30 seconds out of combat, cooldowns stop ticking down. Any mob that is “kept alive” (this should be calculatable by the game, any mob should expect to lose a certain % health within X seconds if all players are up and hitting it, even if it’s not perfect the game should be able to get close enough that at best players doing “light” damage will be able to squeeze 20 seconds or w/e but that won’t be a big deal in the grand scale) to try and game this will instead heal to full, get a ramping damage buff/pulse a ramping reduced damage done debuff, and force players to stop trying to do that. So yeah, people waiting a few seconds for stuff is fine, people running back from a wipe, things like keep ticking down to a point, people standing around for 2 minutes for Hero to come back up, not so much.

I’ll take a couple to demonstrate what a full affix might look like.

  • Inevitable Dooooooooom - (Timer) An NPC is there as soon as the timer starts doing something, e.g. Lord Chamberlain is draining someone, or Nalthor is unleashing a Cosmic Blizzard on Bastion or whatever. Something obvious and trackable. Players need to prevent this from happening. Very simple, it’s just wrapping up a gameplay aspect to the timer rather than pure UI.
  • The Veil Beyond Death - (Endurance) This is the easiest example of one that would increase time taken in an unavoidable way. So what I’d propose here is that for every final Zombie in a pack killed, players get a stacking % primary stat buff. This doesn’t increase health, so the super deadly abilities stay super deadly, but it’s simply a small buffer to help counter the extra time spent dealing with Zombie mobs and bosses - which on a typical dungeon would probably added up to 3-5 minutes, so we’re aiming to trim just that down. If it’s capped at a reasonable level (e.g. the typical pulls to get 100% completion), players won’t feel incentivised to pull extra mobs for MORE stacks cause they won’t exist. This makes it kinda like kiss/curse, but I think it’s in a more interesting way than just saying that all mobs and players do 15% extra physical damage, or w/e. It forces a gameplay adjustment, using cooldowns to work through a Zombie Infectious Rain, or Purifying blast, or w/e would probably be elevated to oneshot mode.
  • The Master’s Lair - (Hard mode) My preference would be that this interacts with the dungeon in some way, e.g. think of how Nefarian activates Hard mode on all Blackwing Descent bosses with some RP and thematic sarcasm. Whether bosses gain extra mehcanics or an extra phase is probably a case-by-case call, and I think that would affect whether the dungeon takes longer. I could see Lord Chamberlain being an extra mechanics boss (e.g. Sinstone Statues that are thrown come alive and chase the closest player, if a Sinstone Statue collides with another Statue all players take damage and are stunned for 5 seconds), whereas Hakkar is probably an extra phase boss (think at 40%, he goes immune, activates Jin’do, who has a bunch of Jin’do mechanics to deal with before he dies and you go back to killing Hakkar). If on the whole, only 1-2 bosses in a dungeon have an extra phase, it probably won’t affect the timer toooo much, but you could do something minor like a 5-10% trash HP nerf in conjunction to help offset it.

Stuff like that.

If you had 5-6 solid affix ideas that rotated, the timer aspect would be up for only 1/5 or 1/6 of them (or if you’re varying 8-10 ideas but having 2 at a time, maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of the time, but still not ALL the time), and you could even graduate how scoring is done even more. So if you say at +15, each dungeon awards a “dungeon” score of 200, but each affix adds 10% more on top of that base score to equal 300 per dungeon (making 2.5k KSM with 10 dungeons), you have factors you can modify with base dungeon score, % each affix contirubtes, where KSM is etc., to vary HOW score thresholds work for people. For example, if you decide people would on average need to do dungeons with a mix of 2-3 affixes to make KSM (so 2-3 weeks in if they’re doing a range of +15s), or they could progress into +18-+20 in week 1 and get it outright, that’s kinda nicer than the current Tyrannical/Fortified split. I also think it’d be a nicer way if different affixes focused on different challenges to overcome for groups to opt into the different challenges they want to do, and maintain separate scoring systems into them. So people who are into time trials can do that, but people who want to push higher and higher on the “super bosses” aspect, or the Immortal challenge can look at that.

I think beyond that with affixes, Blizzard should think more about seasonal changes to dungeons. Having story progression from patch to patch happen within a dungeon could create some interesting changes to pathing, and offer different challenges. Some examples might be stuff like in De Other Side, you start of at the bottom of the Ardenweald zone in 9.3. You now fight through an Ardenweald that has been re-originated from Zereth Mortis, causing it to instead have frog prototypes, avians, and what not. You fight your way up into the trap room, where the boss of this wing is - a Crazed Oracle. Once you’re out of there, you meet up with Bwonsamdi, and do ZG and Mechagon wings as normal. Or in the case of Theater of Pain, you start in the bottom, do all wings, come up to Affront of Challengers, do that, then a Maw invasion happens, then you fight Mordretha.

Along with this, replace Loot tables with new items, new cosmetics, new pets, stuff like that. There’d also have to be new achievements, new achievements that tie into Glory meta-achievements, etc. Given you’re able to re-use an existing dungeon and all the platforming, and even most of the mobs, it should be much easier to move/insert some mobs around, and maybe change a small handful of bosses, and make things feel fresher between Season to Season, without having to wait on whatever trashy megadungeon comes in to be buggy and annoying one patch.

A lot of these are various random thought, and I’ve already disclaimed that some of them are ideas I’m not a fan of (but others might be), but that’s the direction I’d personally like affix design to go more into.

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I’m new to M+ this expansion, and honestly, I’m not even sure why affixes exist. Every week, it takes a couple of dungeons just to get into the swing of the affixes and remember how to handle them and since M+ keeps getting stronger as you do higher keys it’s not like there needs to be added difficulty. You could move great vault/KSM rewards to a higher key level, and I think it’s much easier to balance. Plus, there’s no weeks where the tanks all disappear.

But, if we have to have affixes (and I do agree that they keep the dungeons feeling fresh), I’m not sure why all of them had to be negative. I’ve really enjoyed the seasonal affixes because of the cost/benefit of them, and feel like other affixes should have a similar feel. Someone on the reddit suggested things like instead of sanguine disappearing, it becomes a pool you can stand in for increased dps. Something like that where the affix is negative then a positive. But, I also like the idea of the Torghast method where you get a positive and a negative.

Your entire post comes across as you don’t want any affixes that matter.

This is definitely a good start that blizzard can expand off of. M+ is my favorite part of the game (even if I don’t push into +20s) because of it’s replayability and they typically have plenty of good dungeons every expansion where I don’t mind doing them. I hate the one and done weeks because the Affixes are so painful and aren’t even fun that I just get a 15 completion that week and call ignore it until reset. A change is very much needed for some (or all) of the Affixes that are just way too bs

One thing I pointed out the other week is the affix rotation is the exact same one from season 2. They put in no effort to address the bad affix combinations.

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The theory that affixes affect trash more than players is making this unfun. Maybe if they put more player-only challenges on affixes, where they added a permanent mechanic where an example could be “chaining” where you get attached to a random player between melees or ranges, and they have to stay close for the entire dungeon or they lose a not lesser percentage of life if they separate, or if one dies the other also dies. Doesn’t affect the time it takes to m+ at all and adds an additional 2 player challenge, and on the other hand doesn’t condition you to look for a specific class to deal with it which hugely segregates players for weeks.

What exactly is your point? More annoying the better? People should hate playing the game?

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