Idk, I wipe a lot more in lfr, it has this affix called other players
2 Likes
Yes, but keep in mind mythic raiding already gives better rewards, so itâs fair that itâs harder. You get myth vault AND mythic item drops that can go above the bottom tier that M+ get.
Iâm also assuming the two should be comparable once the âRace to World Firstâ nonsense is over and itâs tuned for normal, sane people.
4 Likes
7s with gilded doesnât change a ton other than letting people upgrade outside of 1 keystone level before poop hits the fan. Itâs still hero track, so still max 626(ish), and 10s will still be required for mythic track items.
It also feels weird to do a 9 that drops 613 gear and only get +6ilvl reward from vault, things are wonky around 7-9 for a few reasons.
4 Likes
Mythic raid is tuned (initially i guess) so that you cannot really carry people.
I believe that challengers peril makes it so that you cannot carry people (in dps maybe, in mechs no). Avoidables kill you at 8. In a way its similar.
I guess the big diff is that healing and dps checks are designed to be more tight in m raid. Whereas ime most groups fail in terms of mechs in m+.
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I know people like to blame Mythic raiders for everything, but all this change did was make them have to work harder for crests and vault rewards as well.
The people you are blaming for this would rather not have to do M+ at all.
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It also has a lockout (raid ID at that), 20 man vs 5 man req, and when extending produces zero loot.
And most guilds that dabble only are doing the first 2-3, thatâs 1 vault options, a pittance of crests, and a limited loot table missing tons of slots.
If you are comparing HoF guilds to casual pugs slamming max power keysâŠnot sure that is a great comparison.
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Both end with people selling carries (4 manning and 18-19 manning).
Of course selling mythic+ carries happens way more often/easier than mythic raid carries.
If a mode drops a certain track, that mode should allow fully upgrading that track. If 7s are your cap, then hero gear should cap at 4/4 or allow the crests from said 7s to take it to 6/6.
8 Likes
That makes sense to me as well.
Not sure where this fits into the conversation, but you can get the mythic crests from the delve maps. So, clearly they are not that prestigious as some people will make them out to be.
I think they should be more available, i donât know what level that is, to me its around 8 and/or you should have the option to skip your vault and get mythic crest?
3 Likes
Or delves are too rewarding, I donât want to see delves nerfed, but I strongly believe they will be in season2
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I think across the board, mythics need to give better rewards. I think the challenge that they offer is nice, but the rewards are not commensurate with the challenge they are.
6 Likes
So, what is the point doing >4 keys if 9s are too difficult + actual design? No matter what effort you do if you get champion or hero gear, youâre going to face the canon event.
Thereâs many solutions there to make raiding more relevant instead extending rewards into keys.
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Why does it have to be this rich people thing to live in mansions and drive lambos and dine at Michelin starred restaurants ? Just get your bank accounts and your real estate and your 401k and all that and let us redistribute the wealth since nobody actually needs all that money.
Plenty of people I know donât have jobs, are indigent, and collect welfare. Work isnât for everybody, and plenty of people chose poverty over incomeâŠeven if itâs easy.
Sound familiar? The answer is the same. People who canât do content shouldnât get gear⊠because if you play like a second class player, you deserve to look, perform, and be treated like a second class player.
Donât like it? Thatâs the way the world works. 50 years ago we could have said âcommunism is that way â->â but communism died so you REALLY know that mentality isnât going to work.
Would you be fine if gear capped out at heroic dungeons /lfr/ delve tier 2 and they would be equal?
Why or why not? Everyone gets the same loot now. And at a bar everyone can surpass. No need to do keys for loot or raid or dreadful delve tier 8s.
2 Likes
Youâre wrong buddy⊠gilded at 7âs allow scrubs to craft 2 pc of max crafted gear at only 3 ilvl below fully upgraded mythic gear that, with the right embellishments, are bis items. They also allow for upgrading hero gear to higher than base mythic gear ilvl as well as max upgrade any mythic items they get.
I, for instance, have only gotten 1 pc of mythic gear so far⊠from the vault. Gilded crest crafted gear is the entirety of the reason Iâm higher ilvl than most people spamming 7âsâŠ. And you better believe Iâm not wasting any gilded crests upgrading any hero gear. That stuff is staying at 4/6 until it gets trashed.
The crests are the very reason m+ is so powerful to gear up in and the reason it was such a welfare loot piniata in previous seasons.
Hereâs a thought⊠get your hero gear in 7âsâŠ. Donât bother fulling upgrading them because itâs just stepping stone gearâŠand just farm 9âs for crests to upgrade your mythic gear from your vault that you get from 10âs and craft your 2 embellished items at just 3 shy of max ilvl. M+ players will get 1 pc of mythic gear a week from vault and, well, if you want more⊠join a mythic raid. What a thought? Finally, loot piniata mode wonât be killing the recruitment pool for mythic raiders by siphoning off all the people who just want easy powerful gear.
Letâs look at this under the old system. Effectively weâre talking about week two 23s at less than full Hero ilvl; thatâs actually ahead of where things usually are
We see those who are doing M+ as end game content regularly doing just fine, but mythic raiders arenât able to just pop over and auto pilot the same keys this tier; this is a GOOD thing for the content
That said, letâs also consider that it IS just week 2. We SHOULDNâT expect casual players to even be NEAR the high end of any end game content by this point. We wouldnât expect PUGs to be going 4/8 mythic in raid. We wouldnât expect a fresh players to be at gladiator in PvP by this point, so why would we expect comparable players to be doing comparable content in another end game lane designed for the challenge?
But philosophy aside, letâs also consider how far we can get with zero guilded crests. If one were to jump into +3s, they would get full champion gear and can get it to 606 without changing content, and they would also be getting weekly heroic pieces; hero track being the highest drops from M+ content directly. Then, said player can bump from a +3 to a +4 and eventually go to 619. They havenât even touched the high end of the low keys and theyâre able to hit the max ilvl from hero crests.
As youâve pointed out, we already have groups at 620 clearing 12s and 13s. Of note, those groups are TIMING those keys, which also means there is a good bit of power from gear to do so. If 620 is strong enough gear to be timing 12s/13s at this stage, chances are, 619 is as well, so EVERYONE can hit the GEAR check needed to do the CONTENT; the only difference is skill and coordination. But a 13 or a 12 is also quite different than an 11, or a 10, or a 9
Every key level increased is a multiplicative increase, which means we have an exponential curve. Which also means we can walk backwards exponentially. If 619 is enough for the top players to time a 13, then we also know that with each key level we walk back, that gear will have an exponentially higher impact relative to the content. So letâs walk it back down to a +10 key. From JUST the M+ scaling alone, the health and damage going out in a +10 is almost half of that in a 13, which represents an effective doubling of output needed. At that level, you typically wonât be able to get gear contributing that level or scaling, so the name of the game becomes taking greedier pulls and efficiency.
But what that does mean is that the bar for clearing a +10 in the same gear is MUCH easier. And a +10 isnât required for guilded, but gives GV Myth track.
But if we jump from a 10 to a 9, we also walk back a roughly 20% increase in health and damage; a 9 is WAY easier than a 10.
But then we also have a few affix factors in play. First, at a 12+ you lose the kiss/curse affix and EVERYTHING gains a 20% bump instead. This means that as you go back below a 12, players are now also getting affixes that can buff them once more AND there is an additional 20% enemy power being removed. Just walking back the affix itself is a bigger deal than the jump from a 9 to a 10! And you got that in addition to it!
And then at a 10, going back to a 9 means youâre going from both fort and Tyr, to just one. A 9 is WAY WAY WAY less effort than a 10.
And if 619 gear is good enough to be in these 13s despite them being roughly 2.5 times as hard, then we can surmise that 619 gear is probably overkill for a 9.
And lo and behold, we can then to 9s and see that many week one clears of 9s were happening atâŠ606-608 item level, with unoptimized gear and often suboptimal enchants/consumables
And 619 is a good bit stronger than 608, and has a ton more stamina.
What this means is, in terms of GEAR, one could theoretically farm +3s for full champion gear, upgrade it to 4/8 Champion, and have sufficient gear to be earning gilded crests. That said, thatâs also going to be a notable skill check. But you also have 13 item levels of buffer between the two key levels, and you can earn it by just doing +4s
And of note, you donât even need to time any of these. You could literally play in the worst group ever and as long as you can get access to a +4 key, you can pop every +4 key and eventually get to one upgrade level below Myth 1/6.
But in full 606 gear, ie champ/veteran gear where the normal quality crests are done with, you canât even get an end of dungeon upgrade untilâŠa +7 key. Which means a 606 player is overgeared for a +7 dungeon already. And that typically means theyâre overgeared for a +8 already.
And they havenât touched their hero crests upgrades whatsoever, and they basically have those to close the gap between the 8 and a 9. If one is able to do a +8 with exact time, then one only needs around +20% more power (or rate) to do the same for a 9.
But realistically, the bottleneck for an 8 or a 9 is NOT your damage output anyway, but your ability to live/Stam. Fortunately, you do not need +20% more HP to live, and if you basically upgrade your rings/trinkets, you will have more than enough damage output AND be able to survive most mistakes comfortably; and that places you at around 608, which is roughly what we are observing.
There isnât really much need for gilded crests to drop from a +7. For starters, itâs awkward to have the next tier crest drop AT the prior track drop. So a +7 should drop hero crests for that reason alone (that is, if you farm just +7s for gear, youâre also farming the most used crest for upgrading them immediately). At that point, a +8 is the next reasonable point in the curve to consider dropping gilded crests, though we do get an end of dungeon bump at a +8 spot, which is better in practice. Thus the next reasonable spot for such things would be the very next key level; a +9
We get gilded crests from +9s because thatâs where they make the most sense in the current upgrade system! You donât need them to be doing 7s, at all. You donât need them to be doing 8s, at all. The gear from 7s and 8s is already ahead of what people have been clearing 9s at thus far, no upgrades. And we still have a substantial amount of power as a buffer, which weâve established is sufficient for +13s
But the last angle to consider is what it means to play at a level where you couldnât do a +9 without gilded crests. This means that a +7 could bump players up to 626 ilvl, which is an entire +9 average item level potential for clearing out 9s. But if you NEEDED that much of a gear jump to clear them, despite them being cleared as low as the 606-608 range, this suggests that youre playing at a level that is SO poor that youâre effectively getting less than half of the value your gear provides!
As in, you are playing at a level where you are going from 619->626 AND youâre only just BARELY eeking out enough power to close the gap between a 7 and a 9, which means your gears POTENTIAL has gone up a TONâŠand youâre not actually using the majority of it
Which brings us back to a âgit gudâ argument, unfortunately. Rather, since your efficiency for this change to make sense HAS TO be this poor (or worse) to justify, then this also means that youâve got a TON of room to grow as a player.
Youâre playing at such a level where youâre squeezing out barely half of the juice of your gear lemon! If you were to sit on a dummy for 5-10 minutes, just a handful of times, and just practice tightening up your rotationâŠyouâre realistically going to take that less than 50% squeeze up closer to a 70%+ squeeze
Why does this matter? This means that youâre talking about a light amount of practice yielding a roughly 40% net increase of realized potential, which is⊠roughlyâŠthe gap between a 7 and a 9!
In other words, youâre effectively asking for gear jumps large enough for more power but HAVE TO be leaving so much of it on the table that, in order for you to ever make that gear DO anything of impact to justify the need for itâŠyou would first have to improve your play, and you would be playing at such a point where the most barebones of exercises would get you there, such that you could have just done 9s without the gear
In other words, your premise JUSTIFIES gilded crests at 9s and NOT at 7s!
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Gilded at +9 is generous enough, considering the difficulty of obtaining gilded crests via raiding. Not to mention, M+ is farmable.
I think +9 is a good compromise between too easy and too hard for obtaining gilded crests.
Also, it is still the beginning of season. As more people get geared in the next few weeks, +9s will eventually feel like +7s right now.
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Thatâs a very different reality than what actually existed. Raiders had a significant ilvl advantage on m+ players for the majority of each season. Eventually it evened off, but pretending like that was just the baseline state of things is intellectually disingenuous.
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I liked the previous version of m+ personally. As someone who 100% pugs everything, pugged to 3k IO in season 3 of DFâŠitâs impossible to get into anything above a 6 right now.
5 Likes
I would move it to 8s myself just to widen the range. Only from 9s feels off in terms of difficulty and reward.
3 Likes