This topic isn’t centered around whether or not Warlocks have utility. They do, and that’s pretty common knowledge.
Your “mythic” build is all over the place and only sims higher because it’s Patches. The moment you get even a single affix that requires movement, that build will be dismal. Seriously, you won’t even finish immolating all targets by the time it’s falling off your first target. That’s why meta builds run Cataclysm. I get that you might be “smashing” low keys, but that’s not as interesting to me as actual data.
Furthermore, sims should never be treated as anything more than a rudimentary tool for self improvement. Simulating is a great tool for the arsenal, and certainly helps to fine-tune builds. However, sims do not belong in a balance discussion outside of showcasing potential under perfect conditions. Keystones are not perfect conditions.
1 Like
Yeah… Get good? Is really only thing I can say. My demonology warlock is top dmg every dungeon boss fight and in top ten on every raid boss fight and I am not a good warlock. My guildie who mains a warlock is top 3 dmg every raid he runs and destroys in PvP… So… Yeah Warlock dmg and survivability are insane. Practice, watch some YouTube videos on rotation and pay attention to how the warlocks who are top dmg in your next raid are playing.
2 Likes
And your perspective is from that of a 554 rating? Who said anything about low tier content?
Frankly, I don’t care at all about your damage, your friends, your guildies, your cousins, or your great aunt. I care about data. Data doesn’t care about anecdotes, such as, “My guildie is so badass guys, you’re just not on his level”. All data points to subpar DPS for Warlocks. Introducing emotion and anecdotes to a balance discussion lacks logic entirely.
Unless you can come into the discussion with logs backing your claims, your claims simply make you look foolish. Especially from the condescending, authoritative standpoint you took.
Sharing this here so everyone else can see how utterly hilarious this guy’s claim is:
His guild has 13 members. Only one is a Warlock. Said Warlock is ilevel 363, without a single M+ under their belt. The guild has never legitimately raided, so it appears his anecdote is based on LFR or pugging normals.
10 Likes
Oh, you don’t care about the game, people, gamers, real experiences from low tier or high tier gamers. Just some numbers on a sheet… Ok I see the problem then lol, have fun with your numbers I will go have fun with the actual game… Troll.
1 Like
When there are millions of players, all experiencing different levels/tiers of content, no. I don’t care about one guy who thinks an ilevel 363 Warlock is amazing. I most certainly won’t listen when that very same buffoon says “get good”, while claiming that his ilevel 363 guildie is amazing. You clearly have a different bar for excellence than I do, particularly when my alt which has 4 hours of playtime (and was created Monday) is higher ilevel already.
Clearly you’re not out on your own, living in the real world. If you were, you’d know that absolutely every facet of life requires legitimate data. Each and every day at work I have to make decisions based on data. If I even attempted to approach stakeholders with the whimsy of emotions and anecdotes (versus data driven logic), I’d be laughed out of a meeting. You simply cannot make decisions or claims without legitimate data. When you get out into the real world, you’ll (hopefully) understand that.
7 Likes
Not sure who you are referencing with the low ilvl as it certainly is not the Mythic Raider I was talking about lol and I fully admit I am low lvl especially at warlock and speak from that perspective. But from my low lvl experience and my friends high lvl experience the Warlock destroys right now… But hey if you want to keep on printing spreadsheets to explain why you are not good all good man, you do you haha. But as it is clear at this point you are just a troll peace out have fun with your spreadsheet.
Link it or gtfo.
Making a claim on the internet is 100% weightless. You look like an idiot to anyone with a brain, unless you can actually link profiles, logs, etc. Until then, your words are just pixels on a screen, and your opinions are assumed to be that of ignorance.
5 Likes
Whether you agree with IV’s meta rankings or not, keep in mind that they are grouping them by caster and melee. They don’t seem to have just a general DPS category that lumps ranged and melee together.
So I think it’s fair that demo is s tier for casters, but it’s also fair to recognize casters aren’t in as good of a place as melee currently are, in general. I’m sort of surprised they don’t consider arcane mage as s tier.
Arcane mage is also the highest on the leaderboards for M+ 16 and up, according to WCL. That in consideration, I don’t think IV’s rankings are anywhere near accurate.
When you consider the amount of casters above the very first Warlock on leaderboards, I don’t think that suggests that Warlock is S-Tier even in the isolated category. Mages, Shaman, and Druids all beat Warlocks on the leaderboards in terms of casters in M+ 16 and up performance. Frankly, the only reason people are even currently running with Warlocks in higher-tier content is because of their utility.
Even WCL’s leaderboards are only a representation of progress, similar to IV’s rankings. Progress does not directly translate to DPS.
Your Lock is in a very similar spot as mine, in regards to progression and gearing. How do you feel about Warlock DPS? Have you found something that feels good currently?
Well, I also think it’s important to separate m+ from raid, which I think wowhead does with separate lists. Either way, every spec should have viable builds for both with options for ST, cleave and AOE. But various people are referring to these very different circumstances (logs in m+, raid tiers, etc) in a general way, when they should really be examined individually within their respective context ( i.e. m+ rankings vs raid rankings vs open world).
Also, I have never been a fan of the “utility” argument as an excuse for lower dps. Nope, warlock is a DPS class. They should smash DPS. The utility is nice, but the most important metric is by far DPS.
I think at the end of the day, I agree with the gist of the original post. It would be nice to simplify some things and reduce cast times substantially. Wow continues to shift more and more toward high speed, high mobility mechanics and Warlock feels a bit dated in that regard.
4 Likes
I just flat out disagree with this for PvE. Their mobility is adequate for a caster class.
Meanwhile priest have… feathers 
2 Likes
I dunno man, I’m always the last one to show up to the stack as I try to get my chaos bolts off. I’m always the one just eating mechanics damage, or barely escaping the swirly that happened to pick me as I try to get my chaos bolts off before I explode, or waiting for CDF to finish. Oops, I just cast soulfire; I wonder if I’ll make it? etc etc etc
I don’t think we need to have an arsenal of instants, but I would welcome a reduction in cast times and ramp time in general.
2 Likes
Hard agree from me. I do really like some of the things Locks are afforded in terms of mobility, it’s just that none of them are well-suited for RNG. On boss fights? Sure, I’ll use my gate / teleport to get out of the blast zone. That, however, simply does not work for the RNG-based mechanics we see in M+. Couple that with the “always frantically trying to cast something” gameplay of Locks, and like you said, I’m always just getting out of danger (or eating mechanics).
3 Likes
This is a completely separate issue that I agree needs to be addressed. I shouldn’t need 70% haste for seed to not feel horrible to cast. Sadly it seems blizzard would rather buff the damage than lower the cast time :\
but in terms of on demand mobility Warlock is A okay. The issue in m+ to me is mostly tied to the current state of tanks just being able to fly across the map ahead of everyone else and not be dead by the time everyone else reaches them. Just means you got to position pretty much semi melee to stay caught up which is annoying.
1 Like
Yeah I tend to use a lot of burning rush because of that. Typically not a huge deal, but sucks this week with grievous.
I really just mean the lack of mobility while I have to remain planted as I wait for what feels like an eternity for my spell to complete. In terms of gate, circle, rush, etc, it’s fine. The ability / rotation timings are just so slow though.
This week is garbage for everyone. Blizzard removed this current affix combo in SL and for some reason thought it was okay to bring it back??? Hopefully its an oversight.
That’s not really the point I raise in the “mobility” section. Warlocks can move, they just can’t deal damage while doing so, and consequently are severely punished for movement. Our instant casts are either proc-based, or largely inconsequential (refreshing DoTs for example). Compare that to the plethora of abilities that Hunters can cast while moving and it just feels bad.
Now consider the fact that Warlocks are stuck with fairly high cast times that don’t even keep up with other classes’ output on a zero-movement encounter, and it all comes to a head in the form of extremely subpar damage.
3 Likes
Why are you comparing any caster to a hunter is beyond me to begin with?
1 Like
I love this thread so much…
The pvp folks rarely get to see dragonslayers go elitist on eachother in the same fashion we do but when it happens… it’s fantastic.
6 Likes
His observation has merit. Maybe we should all just switch to hunter 