My take on why Warlocks just don't perform

I started this expansion late, joining 2 weeks ago. Since then, I’ve been grinding like crazy on one of my all-time favorite classes: Warlock. However, it didn’t take me long to realize that Warlocks just… suck. I’ve tried every build – starting with Affliction, transitioning over to Destro, and finally landing on Demonology. Here are my thoughts on the state of Warlocks, bullet pointing the issues and my thoughts on a prospective solution.

1: Mobility (or lack thereof)

1.1: AoE

Most of Warlocks’ issues, in my opinion, boil down to the tremendous amount of mobility required in Mythic+ and Vault, and their complete lack of mobility. Everything requires movement, yet Warlocks are severely punished for movement. Most of Locks’ AoE requires stationary groups (see Guillotine, RoF) otherwise they simply fizzle without substantial damage dealt. Other classes have instant AoE on a low cooldown, often in addition to stationary AoE. Even SoC is delayed, meaning the adds that split up (which, there are a LOT in this xpac – such as the enemies that charge random player) will completely nullify the damage. Damage which, if we’re being honest, is already low due to its potential on perfectly stationary groups of adds.

1.2: Single Target

Outside of AoE, you have very high cooldowns which frankly have no yield. Other classes’ instant casts literally deal more damage than Warlocks’ high cast time abilities. On paper this might seem okay as Warlocks can simply continue casting, however, Blizzard has ensured that is not the case with M+ and Vault. Everything requires movement. The few encounters that don’t are so rare that it’s not even worth mentioning them (let alone building for them specifically). In M+ I’m dodging whirlwinds, mini-volcanoes, sanguine pools, mob/boss charge abilities, etc. Every single time I have to do this, it severely impacts my DPS. Other classes simply move while instant-casting something that has higher output anyway. Why is this the case?

1.3: Solutions

  • More instant cast AoE, or make AoE follow the latest targeting location. Example, all instances of RoF moves to where you last cast it.
  • More instant cast staple rotation spells.
  • Higher damage output overall, so that moving doesn’t instantly demolish all hope for dealing half-decent damage. We’re not talking 5% buffs (like this week saw), we’re talking dramatic, sweeping buffs.

2: Complexity

1.1: Inputs and outputs

The staple of Warlock has historically been its complexity. The complexity has also lead to wild builds and fun encounters. However, it really feels like in this expansion, Warlocks are only good at PvP. Even then, they’re not great. It requires such an incredible amount of focus to properly rotate (for ALL Warlock trees) that it simply isn’t worth it. Frankly, my 399 Warlock deals less damage in perfect simulations (again, for ALL trees) than a 385 Hunter, Warrior, DH, Mage, Evoker, or Rogue sim. That is in SIMULATIONS – the PERFECT scenario of just sitting and dealing damage! Why?! Warriors are ROLFstomping Locks in PvP, and outdamaging them easily. An instant cast from a Warrior currently crits for FAR higher damage than a Lock’s 2-3 second cast. In PvE, the same rings true. Worse-geared characters consistently outdamage Warlocks because… reasons.

DPS should realistically, and ideally, be the product of inputs and outputs. Simple, easy to follow mechanics (Warrior / Hunter)? Good, but not great, damage. Complex, punishing rotations? High damage, with a potential of being the highest. That’s just not the case with Dragonflight. The easier mechanics lead to higher DPS, especially compared to Warlocks. If Blizzard is taking a “roll your face on the keyboard = good damage” approach, for the love of god, just apply that to Warlocks as well. I’m so sick and tired of seeing Hunters (no offense guys, this is directed at Blizzard, not Hunter players which I do enjoy the class as well) outdamage my Warlock with 3 abilities, while my Warlock has to rotate between 5-8 abilities just to attempt to keep up! Hunters which are tens of average item levels lower, by the way.

1.2: Solution

Simplify Warlock, or dramatically buff damage. Seriously, pick a damn lane and stay in it. Stop treating Warlock talents as though they’re god-tier damage (with the incredible amount of spells required to keep up a rotation), or, give them god-tier damage. 5% damage buffs here-and-there are not the answer, and it genuinely feels like you’re just throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks.

Closing Thoughts

Pick a lane, Blizzard. Seriously. Either the Warlock is a high-complexity, high-yield class, or they’re not. Currently, they’re absolutely not a contender in regards for yield, while simultaneously being one of the most complex classes to play. Juggling cooldowns on a Warlock feels like constant, non-stop monitoring and frantic button-pressing. Meanwhile, my worse-geared hunter deals similar damage and I can literally take a swig of my soda while playing. That’s not hyperbole, that’s the solid truth. Either reward the higher complexity, or strip the complexity altogether. I genuinely don’t know what is going on behind-the-scenes here, but you’re failing Warlocks by many metrics here.

Fix Warlocks please. I’m incredibly demotivated from pushing so hard to get geared and being rewarded with literally nothing. Judging by these forums, I’m not alone.

29 Likes

I brought the idea of abilities like Demonfire being instant but with a delay to improve dmg output in dungeons and pvp. The class indeed suffers from lack of instants with meaningful impact. Soul Burn used to be an execute. Conflag just doesnt fill in the gap enough with its dmg nor provide enough untalented benefit with its raw dmg to benefit the class as a whole.

Things like RoF should apply a stacking debuff that increases fire dmg done ti targets caught in it instead of just a flat 5% when talented. If we cast 3 RoFs then 15% dmg should incur upon enemies caught in it.

Spending shards doesnt feel strong or meaningful for Destruction at all honestly. Sitting still to cast Chaos Bolt when at max Im dealing 70k on perfect Mastery rolls including the immolate consumption from Talebts just seems lackluster and underperforms in all instances for the class. If Immolate stacked and we didnt have to nuke the only way outside of hard casting Incinerate, to generate shards then the class would gain a lot of potential. With 3-4 applications and CB chunking into all applications to deal extra dmg the PvP experience for Warlocks would greatly improve.

That being said, Chaos Bolt itself for Destro is just underwhelming all around. It diminishes our mobility greatly due to its long cast time, lacklusger damage and eating into our Immolate DoT. No caster should have to sit still and turret yet deal less dmg that a melee class who has full mobility on instant casts that deal twice as much dmg without any reprecussions or fears for lockouts

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I wholeheartedly agree. Having to manage shards (and shard cost) is like a minigame in and of itself, meanwhile I can just spam the hell out of abilities on my Hunter and keep up for damage. Focus just doesn’t matter: either you can cast an ability, or you can’t. However, soul shards are an entirely different beast. Variable yields on abilities based on shards consumed makes the game trickier, yet the potential yield is just permanently in the “dog poop” realm of damage.

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Pretty sure demo warlock is nearly S-Tier in all content, they are one of the top DPS currently.

You agree that the other 2 specs have it rough though

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Hahahaha. I guess the key to having a positive opinion on Warlocks is simply not having an informed opinion.

All three Rogue builds are above the highest Lock build (Demo). Both DH DPS builds are as well, as are the sole DPS builds of Monk and Evo, 2/3 Hunter builds, Enh Shaman, Arcane Mage, and Balance Druid. That (#14/20), folks, is apparently “S-Tier”.

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No one care about heroic vault, it’s easy content so you have bad players accessing it.

Mythic + or Mythic Vault are a better base to evaluate.

In high mythic + content for example, Demo is above in beyond everyone else, they are in fact S-Tier

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No links to data, just “we got this from logs, which you know others access and report different findings, but trust us”. Riiiiiiiiiight. I’d rather go to their alleged source and see that you’re BSing myself. Which, you are, and so are they, according to Warcraft Logs.

Icy Veins hasn’t been relevant for a decade, no way am I just taking their word for it, especially when this post is two patches behind. Going straight to their alleged source of data paints an entirely different story, with the first Warlock presence coming in at NUMBER 46. S-Tier, LMFAO!

For reference, there are 17 Rogues, 8 DHs, 7 Druids, 6 Monks, etc., ranking above the very first Warlock. The second Warlock on the rankings (direct at Warcraft Logs – go look for yourself) is #61. There are a total of four Warlocks in the top 100 list of 16+ Mythic+ keystone runs, and the first appears at rank 46. If saying “above in beyond” wasn’t enough of a clue, I’ll confirm, this guy is a joker and has absolutely no clue what he’s talking about.

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The vast majority of Raiders raid lower than mythic. Mythic performance is irrelevant to most raiders.

However seeing as you asked, please show me how demo is S tier in all content. I’ll wait:

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Warlock just received buffs for affliction and destruction. Affliction is seeing more love when 10.0.5 rolls around.

I enjoy playing as a caster so I may be biased but i think warlock is in a reasonable spot right now. We don’t have any top tier spec in raid, but that’s ok. We can play all three specs and be competitive in the content that is out there. Thankfully, blizzard recognized that affliction and destro needed some help and made the proper adjustments. If anything, demo will need a bit of tuning moving forward.

I’m excited to see where warlock goes from here. I jumped into affliction and destruction in raid tonight and it felt great that I was able to use each spec on different encounters depending on their niche. Looking forward to the next tier!

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Why are you referencing data before the buffs that were implemented today?

I quote Icy Veins, the website Method writes for, you know, the best players in the world.

Yet you deem it “irrelevant”

It’s like saying Tom Brady is irrelevant to Football.

Simply put, I don’t care about logs, if Method says that Warlock are S-Tier, they are. The reason the logs are not showing it ( and it’s not the case, click the second column ) it’s because the ones playing them are not good.

If you look back on the race to world first, both Method and Liquid had Warlocks pulling 70-80k dps. They are more than OK

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“I don’t care about logs”

This ain’t World of Feelcraft, chief. Take your crazy someplace else, we’re already full here.

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All 3 specs can be bottom tier for all I care since Warlock will always be useful due to utility but when one spec is so far ahead of the other 2 is when I do care. I am at least glad Blizzard is attempting to keep the specs competitive with each other.

Even after 10.0.5 Affliction still has a lot of design issues that blizzard can’t really bandaid fix with just buffs.

Yeah, so first off, stop running the “Meta” build for both ST and AoE off the sites. I’ve run sim after sim as well as considering all fight elements, and Demonfire/Soul Fire are completely useless for a variety of reasons.

ST:

And you NEVER cast Shadowburn, it is specifically picked just to unlock the 2/2 Conflag of Chaos.

This build sims higher and is more functional because you aren’t wasting time utilizing moves that yield 0 to less soul shards.

Casting 2 Incenerates w/ Diabolic Embers yields more soul shards than a single soul fire, and even w/ soul fire’s damage buff it doesn’t matter because playing off of Burn to Ashes yields far more damage when incenerating a target affected by your Conflag debuff (incenerate will literally crit for as hard as a 2nd casted chaos bolt AND gives you shards vs same hitting damage from soul fire w/ less overall shards).

Additionally Conflag of Chaos talent makes your Conflag absolutely smash. It starts critting for the same damage as the initial chaos bolt before it gets buffed by Madness.

So now all of a sudden you have 2 moves in your kit that hit just as hard as Chaos Bolts, cast faster/instant, AND build shards. You will get far less jumbled up cutting casts off mid way and wasting damage, and you stay in shard gen far faster.

Run the numbers. The amount of chaos bolts you’ll get with conflag and incenerate damage will out damage soul fire even with the 50% marker and demonfire.

Now let’s talk AoE

I have been running this in my mythics and getting good results. I am still testing but believe I am onto something.

I like my builds to NOT make me useless in boss fights (which i was consistently placing 1st or slightly behind) while still being high on meters for AoE. Is it the best? No. But did it marginalize my numbers vastly? Yes. While still having AMAZING focus damage.

The idea is to utilize fire and brimstone as a shard gainer to funnel more chaos bolts which just again buff your incenerate damage to rinse and repeat. The secret to this is you just have to get Immolate on every target ASAP. It immediately gives you absolutely insane shard generation and casting speed because Flashpoint will stack to max right away.

You have to just start BLASTING chaos bolt and mixing in your conflags to keep that 1 3/4 shard tipping into 2 to get back to back chaos bolts. This will inherently proc Mayhem (which is preferred to not waste a GCD and not be locked out every other pull) and as that procs your conflags will continue to pump your shard deficit up. Once you get an avatar proc at the midpoint where flashpoint falls off it will sustain your output.

A typical rotation for me would look like:

  1. @ 3 shards w/ 4 - 5 targets
  2. Immolate all targets
  3. Cast 2 Incenerates
  4. Cast 2 Chaos Bolts
  5. Cast 1 Conflag
  6. Cast 2 - 3 Incenerates
  7. Start Chaos bolting and mixing in Conflags to keep the good times rolling

I did find myself always starting clear pulls at the top then falling off rather quickly. Which was fine because I was utilizing things such as Shadowfury and keeping my Chaos Bolts locked on priority targets. So I was contributing focus damage and making sure mechanics were being handled.

I’m happy with that spot and having the spurts of being on top of the AoE charts depending on others cool downs. I found myself VERY consistent with my AoE with this build and I was still clearing top meters on bosses depending. Mayhem is really such a great talent in mythics and encounters where adds randomly pop up. Those I almost always won out on.

The biggest thing about Destro in general is that it is like Black Mage from FFXIV. You have to have prior knowledge/experience of the encounter and plan your movement out ahead of time. If you are not utilizing Demonic Circle and recasting it during small positional shifts and when you can conflag to make up the .6 lost time, you are not playing the spec optimally.

Sorry we don’t get to Zug-Zug and Run N’ Gun. We require a little forethought to contend. It’s the appeal of the class.

Oh and we bring curses, health stones, get out of jail Gate Card, some of the strongest defensives in game, and though Battle Rez’s are pretty wide now, we still do have that too. Not to mention the ever convenient lock closet. Someone got lost? Summon. Someone dropped and you get someone new? Summon. People are lazy and didn’t run back/had to bio. Summon.

I’ll be testing further in raid this week. But so far I am very happy with these results.

Again, my ST build is simming higher than the “Meta” build posted. Please run the build for yourself:

  1. Load your character in game
  2. Change Talents
  3. Log Out
  4. Use raidbots-> Quick Sim → Look at talents to confirm it updated
  5. Run it
  6. Repeat 1 to 5 w/ the meta build, mine wins every time (And it performs better because of the mentioned cast times in comparison to Forever Soul Fire Waste of Time + Lock in Place and get no Soul Shards Demon Fire)
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Because there effectively wasn’t any buffs to Demo? So clearly if it was “s tier on all forms of content” it would still be now?

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That’s what i would say if every log I looked at conclusively showed I had not idea what I was talking about.

Imagine thinking mythic raid performance had any reflection on the real world for 99% of the wow playerbase.

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If you tap the walls you hear the quality of the Echo Chamber.

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Soul Fire, especially post buff, is not completely useless lol Conflag of Chaos is good but this build is gonna fall apart in an AA or high fort key.

Get some more xp and io under your belt before making such brash statements.

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I don’t remember writing this but it does sound like me…

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Haven’t tried destro. But Demo and aff feel good to me. I keep up with most folks in my guild and in pug keys.

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