You are all missing the point, I’m holy btw. His guilds had 0 problem clearing all the content and he was, assuming, a core raider, he should have been allowed to roll. Every class and every spec is viable in Classic. All the content is 15 years old and nerfed into the ground. Who cares about dps meters as long as he shows up consistently and the content is on farm. I would guess that many of the officers justified gearing their alts over his main, which is complete BS.
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He stayed too long in a guild that never had intentions of gearing him. He says as much in the OP. There’s plenty of guilds that lets ret have gear, he just chose to stay in one that doesn’t.
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The only enchant on any of your gear is a Crusader enchant that your guild probably put on that Nightfall for you. I wouldn’t have given you any loot either.
You didn’t even enchant your SGC.
Looking through the buff logs, it doesn’t look like you were using any consumables either.
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That’s a good point, I just get sick of people talking about their parses like it’s some amazing accomplishment. If this was vanilla, where the content was new and infinitely harder, I would be impressed. But I forget some raiders, mainly who still play retail, prioritize parse numbers over a family community of playing a GAME together.
My friend was bragging about his BWL parse being orange. All he did was push frostbolt like 33 times and crit more than other mages did. Why brag about that? I don’t get it.
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No, they aren’t by any means. You’re better off bringing a pure DPS over them. Resto can provide the same utility as enhancement.
The only reason to bring an Enhancement Shaman to raid is that they have proven to be more reliable than your other raiders despite what their spec brings to the table over another.
Not all content has been released yet. It’s smarter to gear those who will provide value later.
I can get all world buffs an hour before raid, let’s not exaggerate. At most, I’ll do it the night before if I won’t have time the next day.
Implying you can’t do both… Do you just assume that those who push harder don’t enjoy each others company?
I much prefer grabbing world buffs and using consumes than having to raid more than one night a week. I only flask every 1-2 months when we decide to try a proper speed run.
Raiding only 1 night frees up the rest of the week for myself and others to respec to PVP. The system works very well for us, it might not be for everyone but I don’t see why our system would bother you at all.
Your guild leadership is hopelessly retarded for forcing nightfall. It’s a trash weapon because its proc rate is hideously bad, meaning you’d get more overall raid DPS by giving the nightfall player a proper DPS weapon.
Worse yet, it’s an axe, meaning on Alliance you need much more hit gear. With a sword or mace as human, you only need 3% hit from gear, meaning you have very little loot competition vs other melee aside from a few slots.
Again, your guild leadership is retarded. T2 is total, and utter, TRASH for healing aside from the helm and a couple other pieces here and there, but even then, there are still better options, leaving it only taken because these better alternatives can be difficult to acquire. There is an argument to be made for PvP healing, but that has no bearing to a PvE environment.
Your holy paladins are effectively gimping themselves for using T2, thereby rendering them hypocrites for not wanting to play an “inferior spec” when they choose to use inferior gear. Hypocrites deserve the fist.
My ashkandi says hello, because my guild leadership isn’t retarded. Whoever is actually using the weapon to help further the raid>extraneous PvP nonsense. Warriors get BRE prio as far as 2h pvp weapons go, because it scales much better with a class that stacks pure melee stats as opposed to ret, which is 2/3’s melee and 1/3 spelldamage.
I really want to know the logic behind this. T2 is more often a downgrade for healing than an upgrade, coming MC and preraid BiS, where a 5/8, or even full 8/8 in some circumstances, is a total upgrade for retribution.)
In short, your guild leadership is a bunch of brainless, sociopathic, hypocrites.
My experience as retribution has been pretty well. Yes, there are definitely items that I am low on priority on, but aside from those contested items such as onslaught, I have almost no competition with the other melee. We also have a loot system based around not just raid benefit, but also time since last upgrade, and how long a player will keep it before replacing it. Sort of a mix between loot council and EPGP in that sense, working pretty well for everyone.
Most of your problems come from your leadership just being idiots. The low throughput and effort required though is just part of the package - that’s why you don’t have average players playing memespecs. You either have clueless players, or knowledgeable players who play it for the challenge; there is no inbetween.
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I can’t totally agree as my experience was different. I started Holy, and around when BWL came out I was asked if I would go Ret at the time for Nightfall, and at the time I was debating seeing just how it was since I felt I wasn’t good at healing (since I’ve never healed before Classic). So I went Ret main spec.
Around this time Nightfall’s proc was shown to be absolute garbage (and potentially bugged: Speculation is that it’s actually using the TBC code where it has a reduced effect on mobs above level 60) so my guild never made one. I had prio on T2 however and within a few weeks got super lucky and I got not only full T2 but Ashkandi as well.
However, the thing is that Ret feels awful. Playing a slot machine all the time isn’t fun, and “Spelladin” is just some experimental nonsense that doesn’t fit the class fantasy anyway. And then you get into stuff like Consecration taking up a debuff slot and not being allowed to judge Crusader for extra DPS, etc. So between that and the feeling that I’m pushing a boulder up a hill, I decided it’s not worth the ROI, and for me personally this meant I had zero desire to put in any effort at all because when I would (e.g. farm a ton of consumes, get buffs, etc.) it didn’t really matter that much anyway.
It wasn’t necessarily the spec but I wasn’t having fun with it (not because of DPS either, I don’t watch meters) so this past week I went back to Holy and I’ll keep my T2 stuff for PVP and looking cool in Ironforge.
So I agree with the overall idea but not the specificity. If someone really wants to do it and is okay with doing it, then there’s no reason not to let them as it’s been shown to not matter. But Ret just feels lousy, that’s the worst part.
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@OP it sounds like you either are very bad at dps on ret and enhance, or you were in 2 very bad guilds.
If a guild is allowing someone to raid, they should be allowing them to acquire gear. Sure, those super rare drops that are forever BiS like onslaught girdle should be prio for your dedicated fury warriors over a ret paladin. But the more common stuff should be no problem.
And for the record any decent guild that actually runs a ret paladin will let them roll on Ashkandi. I got it week one of BWL and my main raiding spec is holy! Best of luck looking for a new guild.
Just find a guild that will lets you play what you want, no need to min/max unless you are trying to go for server first.
I just want to point out it isn’t Nightfall making your DPS garbage. It’s your spec.
I have nothing against Enhance Shammies or Ret Pallies. BUT - we can not and should not pretend they are anything resembling competitive DPS. The best DPS for fights are about 675ish (for an average against all the bosses) give or take and after the top 5 of those they drop like stones.
These fights are also some of the quickest kill times as well.
So we really REALLY need to stop pretending it’s players against you and making it super hard to be competitive. It isn’t. It’s the game. Hybrid classes were meant to support other classes in this iteration of wow. It’s just how it is.
The dps is borderline respectable in some cases, but, the fact of the matter is an enchancement shaman brings exactly 0 to the raid over a fury warrior or rogue. That same shaman can drop totems and heal and provide more benefit to the raid with better heals.
Also, even dumping you for a fury or rogue and losing your totem (or pally buff) still more than doubles the DPS on those fights. It just isn’t worth (on paper numbers wise) to bring you, ever.
One more thing about NF - it has the TBC proc rate. The one that is nerfed. It’s pretty much useless.
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True but on the same token, even these meme specs are atm doing more DPS than Vanilla expects the raid to do. So other than speed clears or waving contents, it’s not that the specs aren’t serviceable. They will never be as good, of course, but they aren’t so detrimental as people make it out to be.
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Of course, I’m not arguing they shouldn’t be brought. I’m simply saying that if you’re going by the numbers, and if you want to be as efficient as possible - there’s just simply no compelling or good reason to bring one.
Same thing for Ally Ret Pally in TBC. Literally 0 reason to ever bring one to raid. It’s just how it is.
Pretty much. Which was a reason I decided to go back Holy (plus I found I like holy in classic). It wasn’t worth the effort being put in, which meant I felt zero reason to put in any effort. I mean if farming for hours to use half a dozen consumables doesn’t make a significant difference, why put that time in, you know?
Exactly, that top DPS I was talking about are people going ULTRA try hard with max optimization and consumes.
If I’m going to put in that amount of work, I want to have numbers that reflect that. Not still be last out of the DPS classes.
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I want to roll an elemental shaman so badly, but this is my biggest fear. I don’t want to feel like I’m putting in A+ effort for B- results. Guess I’ll just wait until TBC.
That’s not true of our enhancement shaman. He picks up the improved weapons totems amd the other ones that benefit the melee groups.
He gets first prio on BiS for enhancement.
Just because a class doesn’t put out dps loke the standard dps classes, doesn’t mean they’re garbage. Paladins and Shamans are useful if you know how to use them.
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Ele isn’t actually that bad from what I’ve read. Not like Enhancement or Ret. Ele/Resto seems like you could actually hybrid like a hybrid should.