This is where I disagree with you, and why I dont think what you suggested could be considered mutually satisifying.
First, you dont think the player (character) is necessarly above the actions, and I whole heartedly disagree, that is really up to how one wants to roleplay their character. Some are but some are not.
Next, you’re (or the quote, not really sure if you are) telling me theres consquences for actions. Im not four. Hence why its kind of insulting.
Lastly, thats kind of on blizzard for not decideing what the horde is, over the course of 7 expansions. Iv never really ever even seen debate here about it, its always been the noble and misunderstood. Plus both factions have done some pretty nasty stuff to each other, holding one accountable, while sweeping the others under the rug makes no sense to me.
Heck we could even say that the horde even did face consquences for its actions in mop-wod. I mean Org got raided, and the horde pretty much ‘lost’, it was only by the alliances mercy we were even allowed to exist post-seige of org. I mean even garrosh was held accountable at the time.
I really just dont think being dragged through that again could be considered mutually satisfying.
Subserviently pleading to the night elves for forgiveness and allowing them to build in Ashenvale while completely removing ourselves from it is not a mutually positive ending. That’s a purely night elf positive ending.
You, for instance, don’t want another Cataclysm expansion because you, in an (slight) exaggeration of your own words, enjoy the Night Elf power fantasy of taking back all of Kalimdor which Cataclysm provides.
And yeah. If a Forsaken player wants to be evil, they do deserve a place to be evil in. You don’t get to police that. You’re not their mother. You’re not their world leader. You don’t get to decide what is correct to play just because your favorite place in the game got destroyed.
Well, on the other hand the NE powerfantasy is quite impressive (and sort of ridiculous if they were portrayed in the way some NE fans clearly believe they should be). I actually DO think its entirely possible for them to strong arm their own territories back (and I suppose I don’t have too many issues with that conceptually).
As for the Forsaken? I disagree. They should always BE one of the Darker races in the Horde (and that is fine); but they cannot continue as they have either. They, at the very least, need to become a species that is compatible with the other Horde races (which they certainly are not atm). If they don’t, then honestly their racial fantasy will continue to come more and more a the expense of the other Horde Races (because they will constantly be forced to turn a blind eye to the Scourge festering in their midst).
Orgrimmar isn’t just the Orcs. It’s the Horde’s Stormwind. The heart of the majority of its military power. The idea that one race could force them out of their back door is ridiculous.
I agree that the entirety of the Forsaken shouldn’t continue to be Sylvanas’s cult of personality. However, I do think a portion of it deserves to continue to do randumb evil stuff that some people enjoy doing, as long as it doesn’t reflect on the entire Forsaken, or the entire Horde.
Forsaken need some good elements, like Leonid Barthalomew.
Too bad Barthalomew has never been a Forsaken. He is an undead, but he’s never been one of them (neither has Faol, or Voss up until now). Seems the “good elements” of the race aren’t actually affiliated with the race in question (a lot like the Bilgewater, all the “Good” Goblins are either neutral or alliance aligned).
I would consider 3 of the largest groups of fans when trying to come up with such an ending:
Alliance
Baine’s Horde
Sylvanas’s Horde
Even within those three, there are divisions - but that is a good place to start.
If my intent is mutually positive:
I would have Voljin return as a Loa-King, on the back of Rezan, to confront Sylvanas. They would briefly discuss how he was tricked, and how a dark power was manipulating them both.
Voljin would then offer Sylvanas a deal. A Loa’s Bargain. She could return to the shadows - if she steps down.
All her actions in service to the Horde would be pardoned by Voljin, since he selected her - but she must step down.
Sylvanas agrees. The idea that she may have unknowingly been serving as some one else’s puppet concerns her. She didn’t want to be Warchief. She wants to return to the shadows - where she will be most effective. And now she sees a way out - while leaving her Forsaken in Voljin’s care.
She scrams, and Voljin is Warchief.
Voljin then confronts Anduin or Tyrande or Genn. While still riding Rezan.
Voljin accepts all the blame for what has transpired. He vows to lead the Horde back to an honorable place. He will work with the Alliance and Anduin - just as he worked with Varian. But if the Alliance wants to continue to fight - the Horde will defend itself.
Anduin declares that the Horde is noble, but the Alliance demands Sylvanas’s head. Voljin replies: “You aint the only one. If you want it - you have to go get it yourself.”
I think it can be positive for all 3 parts of the Player Base because:
The Alliance gets continue to have the moral high ground. They see Sylvanas rebuked publicly and cast aside. They can still hate Sylvanas while working with the Horde in the future. The Alliance at least sees some accountability.
Baine’s Horde gets rid of Sylvanas, and they can talk about honor, again. And making amends. Fixing mistakes. The good stuff. Voljin can try and make the world better with Anduin.
Sylvanas is recognized for her actions in service of the Horde, while not applauded for it. The Alliance can still seek her head - as ever. But at least she is not a “wanted woman” under Horde law. She basically becomes a Horde aligned neutral character who is very hostile with the Alliance.
For all the whining about the resolution of the story, people seem to forget that this is the best moment the race has had in game. They weren’t part of a 3 phase army, the Night Elves faced the entire might of the Horde on their own. It’s the same heroic story as the Battle of the Alamo. Night Elf players should be proud of the price they made the Horde take for every inch of land. It featured a great well-rounded heroine… who even broke the tension every now and then with a bit of humor, but did not let the awesome responsibility she was thrust break her… until after it was over and nothing more to be done. While Daerlyn may be our Arthas, she’s not nearly as flawed in pride and arrogance as he was… merely pushed beyond her breaking point.
I specified that my suggestion would be neither appealing to Horde players who don’t want to work with the Alliance nor would it appeal to Alliance players who don’t want to work with the Horde.
I said players, as in the fan base at large, not any one player or what they personally role play.
If it’s any consolation, I agree, and believe Sylvanas should have been dealt with years ago.
I agree that sweeping things under the rug makes no sense. But from my perspective the Alliance’s mercy is exactly sweeping the Horde’s actions under the rug. And I expect it to happen again.
I don’t think that’s an exaggeration? I’m pretty sure that’s almost literally what I said.
I wouldn’t even wish that kind of fate upon my most hated character.
Even Sylvanas, a character I vehemently dislike right now, doesn’t deserve the same whimper of death sequence that Garrosh suffered. Being spared from execution at the end of one expansion, only to serve as a plot device for the next expansion and then promptly killed right off the bat.
As has been this entire expansion been a rehash of MoP.
If a police officer pulls you over for speeding and gives you a warning instead of a ticket that’s sweeping it under the rug. And then the Horde decided to floor it and not have learned anything (Yes, Blizzard’s fault, not your personal fault).
Saurfang literally agrees to the War of the Thorns because of Stormheim.
Pretty sure that’s how the Vulpera will become an Allied Race.
I don’t see anything in that as satisfying to Alliance fans in general or Night Elf fans specifically.
And nothing that repays having to have had endured Teldrassil and its fallout.
Blizz (a entertainment company) very intentionally took a portion of their customers and put them through a thoroughly wretched experience for a hobby that the customers pay for. There has to be a payoff for having gone through that or you are just damaging the customer base (which has already been damaged time and time again.)
I am not going to be polite or sugar coat this: Blizz did something stupid. They now realize it and know it has to be addressed. Like the rest of us, when we do something stupid they just want to forget they did it. However they are a company and their customers aren’t forgetting, so they are going to have to “roll up their sleeves” and get to work on fixing it.
Classic is only going to bail them out for so long.
Its actually kinda funny in a sense, they actually managed to tick off nearly everyone, team syl, team saurfang, team tyranda, team anduin. Like lmao thats actually pretty hard to do.
Meh not really. I guess one coulda maybe kinda of a little see it as that. Im pretty sure we were. arguing about actions being swept under the rug not absolving characters.
Sylvanas literally broke Horde laws in Gilneas, and now she’s Warchief. Garrosh being killed does not hold the Horde accountable for what the Horde did during his time.
The problem with that theory is that we’ve seen into her head in the novels. So the only way this theory would work would be if the clone Sylvanas 100% believes that she is the real Sylvanas.
In all honesty I don’t see anyway this expansion can end in a satisfying way for everyone. There are players who are firmly convinced that Horde should be destroyed after Teldrassil and that’s not going to happen. The player choice with the Horde between Saurfang and Sylvanas guarantees that one side is going to be disappointed. Either Sylvanas kicks the bucket, leaves/tossed out of the Horde and the Sylvanas’s fans are up in arms or Sylvanas is revealed to be right all along and everyone else gets pissed off at Blizzard for trying to make her a Lelouch with Zero Requiem type gambit.
But anyway back on topic for ops thread, I dunno how they get mostly everyone outta this one somewhat happy, without a retcon.
So someting I dont think they could do,
Doppleganger, would just feel like a massive cop out.
She knew all along the tree was corrupted, its like then… this coulda all been avoided by just telling them…
So what they could do would be to retcon the burning, still burn it but just say everyone got out, would I think lessen the impact of the whole incident.
Night evles and undead get new cities (more undead leaders need developed too).
Night elves and undead either abtain new terrtories or take back old ones
Sylvanas stands down as warchief, goes off on some quest to maybe retirn next expansion.
Thrall or baine warchief (ugh i would hate this).
Factions dissolved and a UN type deal is formed, this faction conflict has worn itsself out over the years, and could be pretty intresting seeing us work together for once.
