Well, the key factor in them not joining the Horde is their adoption of the “we’re just using them” theme coming from Sylvie. Sylvie uses EVERYONE as tools for personal objectives, but the Forsaken have never been canonically aware that they are included in EVERYONE. They truly believe that they are the exceptions, that they are NOT included in “Her Arrows in her Quiver”.
They need to take a beating … and an absolutely a brutal one; and it might help if they take that heavy dose of reality from Sylvanas herself (I genuinely do believe that before BfA is done, she will betray them in an absolutely catastrophic way). Its either that, or Blizz intends to redeem her with “secret Altruism plan” … which … gross (the idea of validating her makes my skin crawl).
EDIT: And … remind me … which alternatives? Barthalomew? Faol? Both of whom are in nearly identical situations as Calia; they risk washing away the Forsaken’s pain and history (and like Voss have deliberately not been a part of the Forsaken FOR YEARS). The Desolate Council is dead … so they’re out. Voss is not there developmentally yet. So … who are these others you speak of?
Wonderful, everything I could have ever wanted out of 14 years of loving the Forsaken.
Even better.
All these races are an ocean apart and allied with each other, they can all be themselves just fine over that distance. What’s some random Orc or Tauren or Troll gonna care about what the Forsaken do to humans? Less than nothing, more than likely. The Night Elves and living in a desert are far more pressing concerns, and unlike the Forsaken actually threaten them.
I get it, you don’t like Sylvanas, it’s fine. But acting like she’s this sentient demon within the writing of WoW that actively oppresses everything of her volition and is all that is wrong and evil in the world is laughably dishonest.
Fine, than the Horde should be allowed to abandon the Scourge part of their faction and let them get wiped out by the Alliance on their own. Oh … wait … we can’t. Right, the game mechanics allow the Forsaken to repeatedly act like edgy monsters without the risk of consequences, because Blizz will always have to eventually cater to the Horde races (and their players) half a world away.
The ONLY thing protecting the Forsaken for their behavior since Cata is Blizzard having to eventually dial it back for the rest of the Horde; and game mechanics protecting them because they are a PC race. They should have been wiped out as the monsters they are years ago … because they truly have become something utterly vial (and completely incompatible with LIFE itself).
They either need to change course JUST ENOUGH to become something compatible with the other Horde races (at the very least) … or they will continue to come at the expense of every single other Horde Racial Fantasy (that are forced to tolerate the scourge in their midst for increasingly weaker reasons). Its time the Forsaken grew out of their Edgy Hot-Topic days a little bit…
I understand the sentiment. The Forsaken are up to bad stuff. They are aloof, cold, callous, with grim, gallows humor. They experiment on unwilling victims to further their ends. They do not trust the living.
But how much of that can be trimmed back, if that is why people chose the race? Should it be toned down at all?
I can see Calia becoming Queen of Lordaeron, and helping navigate the Forsaken into a new era of peace and kindness, with respect for life and nature. But that really messes with their identity. Might as well make Dwarves teetotalers or Pandaren strict about portion control.
I dont know how much the Forsaken can be toned down without destroying what makes them a desirable race to play as.
Not everyone can make the jump from battlefield tactics to a strategic campaign. Perhaps she’s out of her depth. Then again, we’re putting more brainpower into this than Blizzard did.
It needs to be trimmed back only so far as is needed for them to officially (unambiguously) be part of the Horde. At this point the Friggen Blood Elves are LEAGUES further in progression towards that goal than the very Forsaken that brought them into the Horde in the first place.
I could give a crap about them being hostile with the Alliance, but they DO need to adapt enough to at least be compatible with the living Horde races. Nothing more than that … that truly is all that is needed (and while it seems like a small step on paper, it is a large step in a very different direction for them as a culture … with the direction they’ve been on for so long being so opposed to that compatibility). “Death to the Living” INCLUDES the LIVING Horde too I’m afraid (and yes, the Forsaken DO shout the mantra of Putress far more often than I’m comfortable with).
There’s also time travel. Or the age old classic “Equate one insignificant W for the victims to making up for tragedy and consider it solved.” Happened in WoD, can happen again.
At this point I just want Blizzard to go through with whatever asinine ending they have planned so I can safely quit WoW for good. Swear BfA left such a bad taste in my mouth even Classic couldn’t clear it.
Is time travel really any different to a retcon at this point? It would be obvious the only reason they did it was to undo the hole they dug for themselves.
I wonder how people would feel about this. In the recent Magatha thread, I got to thinking:
What if at the end of BfA, Blizzard destroyed the racial barriers, and made two new Factions available for people who buy the new expac.
One Faction being “Dark” and the other being “Purely Benevolent”.
That would be a canon declaration that one side is good and the other is dark/evil/what-have-you.
It would allow the “Honor” folks a place to be.
It would also give folks like Droite their “good” Goblin and Forsaken leaders. Calia and Gazlowe could lead the “good” Forsaken and Goblins, while allowing those who enjoy their current iteration a place to go under Gallywix and Sylvanas.
It would be an affirmation for the Honor Horde and Alliance - they would be the canonical good guys and work together. As they do now.
Meanwhile, the Dark Faction could have Sylvanas, Gallywix, Magatha, the Night Elves who feel Elune sucks, and such.
To me it seems it at least affirms positions and creates accountability. The “bad eggs” are excised into their own themes. The “good” team now can be “honorable” without doing things they object to.
The Gameplay for Characters who own the next expac is easy to fix with Bronze Dragons/Phasing.
I think it gives the Sylvanas Horde, the “honor” Horde, and the Alliance a positive ending for BfA. Though not complete ecstatic satisfaction for one group.
That’s not true. You just don’t like the development other Horde characters have gotten. There is no actual shortage of Horde characters. Rokhan has gotten more screen time than ever before despite his not being made the official Darkspear leader. Vol’jin’s back. Talanji is queen. Baine’s been rescued again. The Blood Elves and Nightborne aren’t short any amount of characters. Thrall’s back. Saurfang is actually a character now:
Alex Afrasiabi: And you look at characters like Saurfang. Saurfang's a character I put in the game literally for one purpose back in the day - I needed someone for player's returning with Onyxia's head to talk to.
He became that NPC that was just this prototypical, hard-as-nails orc that was all about honor and duty.
It was, like, three in the morning or something when I wrote out his, what we call his gossip text, which is when you click on an NPC and you have a pane of information that gives you some kind of dialog.
I wrote that and it was pretty serious. I wrote that, and people read that and were like “Damn, this guy’s no joke!” And interestingly enough that little thing, that little snippet became the mythos of what Saurfang is today. After all these years his roots are still held in that one statement.
Because, sadly, Voss is nowhere near ready to lead them. For the last six years you’ve been arguing that she should become their leader, she’s spent her time deliberately NOT being a part of the Forsaken. That does not make you wrong, by ANY metric (she is the living embodiment of Forsaken Free Will); however that is a HUGE narrative pit-fall for her to be Sylvie’s replacement. Even now she HEAVILY implies she is only working for the Horde because she was conscripted by force (regardless of how much I liked seeing her care for and interact with Stone and Zelling … that truth still exists; she’s not participating willingly).
As for Nathanos … my issues with him aside (and do not take my rhetoric wrong, as much as I want to believe in his potential moving forward, the chances of him actually achieving the potential he does actually have is extremely remote) … he has not been presented a personal reason to turn on her. Its great to say that he should turn on her due to moral principles, but I think it is very clear by the way that Sylvanas has shaped the Forsaken’s concept of morality … it would be very out of character for ANY of them to become conscientious objectors against a Queen they worship (SOLELY on the behalf of an enemy).
I agree with you on Voss in concept; I disagree with you on Voss in practice. Nate I disagree with (as he is now) in practice, but in concept … there is potential. I know few will agree with me on this … but structurally with how he’s been handled since “Black Mirror” … the possibility that he would turn on her is at least a possibility (should SHE give him the proper PERSONAL motivation to do so).
You argue that Voss needs development to be leader, and then simultaneously admit Nathanos would need development to be leader. I would rather that development be spent on Voss, and raid mechanics be made for Nathanos.